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Entering Chord Names

In the program help, I couldn't find any help topic on how to do this.

I searched the forum & thankfully see that Lawrie P answered this question from someone. So I created a new staff & put some rests to equate to where I want the chords & I'm entering the chords with Insert/Text.

But stupid question, how do I get the new chord staff to be invisible (so that just the text shows up)? Even if I put 0-1 lines in staff, it still shows the rests.

And I'm assuming that in order to use the Chord Transposer which I just downloaded (from the user tools starter kit), chords need to be entered as text (not lyrics), right?

Also, I saw that Lawrie P also had some cool fonts for chords, etc. If I download those, how do I use them??

I'm new to using chords in NWC - and it's not at all intuitive. NWC really should improve this with, eg, a command under the Insert menu for Insert Chord Symbol/Name. And then the tranpose staff should work on the chords too....

Thanks!
BA

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #1 –
G'day BA,
where do I start..?  :)

First thank you for your interest in my fonts - it's always gratifying to see that someone has benefited.

================
Now, BEFORE you enter the text chords, you can select the entire staff and make it |Visibility|Never|, however I find this can have adverse effects on the chord symbols horizontal position, so when working with rests to position the chord symbol I leave them visible - easy way is to use a User Tool - specifically Andrew's Global_Mod.

Have you use user tools yet?  If not check out the Scripto: www.nwc-scriptorium.org - go to the User Tools page: http://nwc-scriptorium.org/nwc2scripts.html - lots of good info there.

The specific Global_Mod commands I use are:
Rest Visibility=
This makes all the rests visible again after you've made the staff's contents |Print|Never|

Rest Opts.VertOffset=2000
This "moves" the visible rest off the visible page so it doesn't get printed, BUT it does maintain horizontal position and space usage.  This helps immensely with chord positioning.  I don't run this command until AFTER I have entered my chords and any other text that I want to have available for other staves when layering them with my "Lyrics" staff.

This staff usually has my chords, lyrics, and other text directives that are common to all the other staves on it.  It is then layered with the other staves when I'm printing the parts out.
================

Using my fonts:
The fonts are ordinary Window ttf fonts - use 'em in any product you want.

To use them in NWC, you simply need to set a "User Font" in |File|Page Setup|Fonts (tab)| for the special purpose ones *Dings and *Chords and you can redefine the standard fonts (Staff Italic, Staff Bold etc.) to use the *Text or *TextEuro text fonts.  Of course, you can also use the "Staff Metrics" dialogue to change the notation font to the matching NWC2*Dings system font for a complete matching set.

For the special purpose fonts, select a user font - I normally use User1 for the *Dings font and User6 for the *Chord font.  The *Dings font works best at the "Staff Metrics" or staff size and you can set the chord font to whatever size you like - I find 16 to 18 point works best for most of my scores.

I normally position chords as Centre justified at next note/bar for best results though this sometimes needs to be modified.
================

All my font suites come with extensive information included as a PDF in the zip file - including full ASCII tables.  That said, I usually use "Typecase" when I need something that is hard to remember the actual keyboard key for - not a problem with basic chords as they use the logical keys on the keyboard. 

E.G. an A sharp minor seventh chord would be entered as A#m7 OR A#>7 OR A#.7 and the symbols work fine.  Try the variations to see the differences...
================

If you have any other questions relating to the fonts and their use please don't hesitate to ask.

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #2 –
Okay. I've downloaded all the fonts and the user starter kit, etc. But there's a whole lot of stuff that I don't understand at all. I've never used user tools before and the code blocks I've seen are totally confusing. I'd prefer to just enter the chords simply with my keyboard.

Here's what I've done. (I'm TRYING to create a lead sheet.) I've got a staff for the melody with lyrics below it. Then I've created another staff & moved it above it. On this new staff, I've entered rests for each of the chords - eg, if there's 2 chords in the measure, I put 2 half note rests. Then I started to enter the chord names using Insert Text.

However, I have no idea how to make the staff invisible. The Visibility|Never or Print|Never that Lawrie mentioned, I can't even find.

Can someone please explain in very simple but detailed steps how I add the chord names on my lead sheet??

Thanks!!!!

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #3 –
You might want to download the file from <here>

It uses Lawrie's fonts and covers a number of 'lead sheet' issues.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #4 –
Thanks Rick. I downloaded the file, but it doesn't really help me figure things out.

1) In order to use User Tool Transpose Chords, do the chord notations need to be entered as Text or as Lyrics, or either?

2) I've now figured out how to use the Visbility|Never thing that Lawrie mentioned. But it turns off the whole staff.  How do I get the rests not to show (so I can tie my chord notation to a particular value, to allow for correct spacing), but get the chord notations TO show?

Thanks.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #5 –
G'day BA,

Quote from: babryanton –
Thanks Rick. I downloaded the file, but it doesn't really help me figure things out.

1) In order to use User Tool Transpose Chords, do the chord notations need to be entered as Text or as Lyrics, or either?

2) I've now figured out how to use the Visbility|Never thing that Lawrie mentioned. But it turns off the whole staff.  How do I get the rests not to show (so I can tie my chord notation to a particular value, to allow for correct spacing), but get the chord notations TO show?

Thanks.

1) Transpose chords ONLY works on text chords - not lyrics

2) Global_Mod can be used to make the rests visible again.  As mentioned in a previous message the Global_Mod command:
Rest Visibility=
will do it.  This is necessary for the Chords to appear correctly when positioned via rests.  In order for the rests to not actually appear on the page even though they're "visible" you need to move them off the page use the Global_Mod command:
Rest Opts.VertOffset=2000

To restore the Chord visibility use the Global_Mod command:
Text,Font==User? Visibility=
where the ? is the number of the user font used for the chord text.  E.G. if you used User6 for your chord font then the command would be:
Text,Font==User6 Visibility=
Again, this only works on chords entered as text, not lyrics.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #6 –
It has occurred to me that a "blow by blow" account of one way to do the chord thing might be in order.

So, I've decided to give a brief account of how I use the staff layering facility to create consistent parts for my church music team.

  • Start the new work - I have a template already prepared that has appropriate staves, font selections etc. to save me some time.
  • Enter the "Vocal staff" - this staff has an instrument assigned and contains the melody.  When entering this staff (and most others) I do NOT enter any text that is common to all the other staves.  NB. IT DOES NOT HAVE LYRICS
  • During the entry of the "vocal staff" I copy it (usually once it is finished) to my "Lyrics staff"
  • NB the lyrics staff is always muted
  • Once the lyrics staff has been copied from the vocal staff I mark EVERYTHING Print|Never
  • The lyric staff is now ready to have added to it:
    • Lyrics
    • Metronome mark(s)
    • Rehearsal marks
    • "other" text common to all staves
    • Rests made visible with Global_Mod (Rest Visibility=)
    • Chords (normally center justified at next note/bar)  NB if there are chords on rests I usually use crotchet (quarter note) rests unless I need batter granularity, then I will also use quaver (8th) rests.  Semibreve and minim (whole and half) rests usually end up putting the chords in a less than optimal position
    • Rests moved "off" the page with Global_Mod (Rest Opts.VertOffset=2000)
  • Enter the piano staves
  • enter any other parts that may be in my source document
  • (*optional) create Bass guitar part if not already entered from source
  • (*optional) create a drum part if not already entered from source
  • create parts for trombone and flute on their respective staves if not already entered from source
  • create/enter any other optional parts that may be required for this piece
  • Layer the vocal and lyric staves with all others "turned off" and preview the print layout - adjust as necessary for a pleasing result - includes setting
    • Staff metrics
    • adjusting margins
    • forcing system breaks
    • positioning of some chords
    • making space for chord symbols in n-time bars if necessary
    • adjusting staff heights
    • etc..
The process just completed constitutes my lead sheet...
Then:
  • Layer lyrics staff with Trombone part instead and check and adjust as above
  • Layer lyrics staff with Flute part instead and check and adjust as above
  • Layer lyrics staff with any other parts that may be required instead and check and adjust as above
  • Print all parts by layering each part with the Lyrics staff individually as above and printing...
  • Overprint parts with a WP document that has our numbering system numbers for the piece in it as well as the part name (Trom etc.) as headers.  This document includes page x/n (page x of n pages) info and has as many pages as the part being printed - usually between 1 and 3 - I try to limit parts to 2 pages wherever possible.

*this is usually for my benefit - our bassist and drummer normally do not use any parts I may create.

Note, this file is saved REGULARLY usually every 8 or 10 bars during note entry.

The above process is modified slightly if I need to create say, a trumpet or sax part.  Normally you will want the chords on a trumpet or other transposing instrument part to be appropriate to the key of the instrument.  In these cases I will create additional "Lyrics" staves from the original created in the process above.  These staves will be transposed (music and text chords to keep things consistent) to the appropriate key for the instrument in question.

If it is for a trumpet part for my personal use, I often won't bother with the transposed lyrics staff, just noting instead that the chords are in concert so I don't forget...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #7 –
Thanks Lawrie! This was helpful.

I figured out how to add the chords.

I am running into a small problem when I have a whole note in the vocal line, but 2 chords. On my "lyric" line, I've tried adding either 2 half notes, 2 half rests, or 4 quarter rests. And the result is all the same - when I turn on Visibility|Never, it moves these particular notes very close together (not proper spacing, as it was before I made it invisible).

I'm getting around it by adding the chord names in that bar with Preserve Width, so the chord names space further apart. But is there something better I should do for this specific problem?

Thanks!
BA

PS: I've tried the transpose chords and triple-checked the output - works great! Very handy.

PPS: Your idea of creating a template with your user fonts is a very good one! I'm going to do that.


Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #8 –
G'day BA,

Quote from: babryanton –
I am running into a small problem when I have a whole note in the vocal line, but 2 chords. On my "lyric" line, I've tried adding either 2 half notes, 2 half rests, or 4 quarter rests. And the result is all the same - when I turn on Visibility|Never, it moves these particular notes very close together (not proper spacing, as it was before I made it invisible).

That's why I use rests that are visible but "moved off the page" with Global_Mod...

Quote
Rests moved "off" the page with Global_Mod (Rest Opts.VertOffset=2000)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
It has occurred to me that a "blow by blow" account of one way to do the chord thing might be in order.
.
.
.

Hallo Lawrie,

at first, sorry for my terrible English:-)

I tried to use what was written above, but I have 2 problems when using "chord stave", for example in Caverns sample.
Image of export to PDF is better than words: http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9163/caverns.png

Red scratch means what I don't like to print. What did I do wrong?

Second question/information is about your amazing fonts. They have one mistake - are only in anglo-saxon system (notation) - ABCDEFG. You forgot in Europe very frequently (mainly!) used "Italian" system of notation - CDEFGAH. A didn't found any H in fonts. There's not problem to change ABCDEFG to CDEFGAH in PHP files, but working with fonts is for me impossible.
Any idea?

Thanks a lot all people, who works on NWC. Great job!

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #10 –
G'day Rike,
Quote from: Rike –
I tried to use what was written above, but I have 2 problems when using "chord stave", for example in Caverns sample.
Image of export to PDF is better than words: http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9163/caverns.png

Red scratch means what I don't like to print. What did I do wrong?

When Fred created "Caverns" he didn't use the technique I described above.  The staff the chords are attached to is not a "layered" staff, but an orchestral one that has been limited to one line.  My method is different - perhaps you could re-read it while creating a new file to practice with.  I would attach an example but my time is somewhat limited at the moment and I can't post any of the files I usually work with due to copyright considerations.

Quote
Second question/information is about your amazing fonts. They have one mistake - are only in anglo-saxon system (notation) - ABCDEFG. You forgot in Europe very frequently (mainly!) used "Italian" system of notation - CDEFGAH. A didn't found any H in fonts. There's not problem to change ABCDEFG to CDEFGAH in PHP files, but working with fonts is for me impossible.
Any idea?

When I created the fonts in question I didn't consider (actually wasn't aware of) an alternate character for "B".  When they were under development a lot of testing was done by people from all over, including several from Europe (which what inspired the *TextEuro fonts)  and I don't recall any mention from those users regarding the alternative note/chord name... (I do have some faint recollection of something but I don't recall exactly what and whether it was actually during the beta program or not).  Just how big a problem is it?  I am somewhat reluctant to modify the existing fonts if this usage is at all diminishing...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #11 –
Hallo Lawrie,

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
My method is different - perhaps you could re-read it while creating a new file to practice with.
I will try. It's awfully hard for me to understand what you wrote, for example, what does mean twice used "NB"?
Example would be really better, not just now, only pair of bars to show your idea practically. I think it would be better for other not-good-at-English users;-)

Quote
When they were under development a lot of testing was done by people from all over, including several from Europe (which what inspired the *TextEuro fonts)
I don't know what country they were from, but in the middle od Europe, Germany, Austria, Poland, Magyar, on east (Czech Rep., Slovakia...), on north (Sweden)... everywere I saw using letter H only.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonleiter
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%BAwi%C4%99k_muzyczny
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangsor
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dur
http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durov%C3%A1_stupnice

Quote
Just how big a problem is it?  I am somewhat reluctant to modify the existing fonts if this usage is at all diminishing...
Not diminishing, normally using:-) For us is rather "exotic" your anglo-saxon "B":-) Sometimes in jazz music is used your "B", but in normal music (95%) we have "H major" instead of your "B major". And our "B major" is your "B flat major". So it's plain enough, that unawares using "your B" instead of our "H" makes dangerous and terrible mistakes...

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #12 –
Rike, for entering chord symbols, there are two very easy ways.

The first is to make text entries with the letters you want.  Copy this clip to a staff in Noteworthy 2 to see what I mean:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Eb7"|Font:PageText|Pos:8
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Text|Text:"Ebm6"|Font:PageText|Pos:8
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

That's simple but time consuming if you have many to do.  The other way is to use a new staff, and write your chord symbols as lyrics, using the lyric editor.  To do this, add the new staff (Ctrl-A) then open the lyric editor (Ctrl-L).  Select Top Alignment.  Then type the names of your chords, leaving a space between them. 

Anyway, in the lyric editor, you would enter chords, say:
Eb Eb Gb Fmaj Gmin7 A A7

You would fill the staff with hidden rests except where you want the chord symbols to appear.  In those places you put a muted note whose properties are Override Stem Length=0 and Notehead = headless.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=0,Muted
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

If you can't find the symbols you need in Lawrie's suite of fonts, then just use ordinary text.  Sharps are just "#" and flats can just be "b"   You can achieve the small "degree" elevated circle for a diminished sign with the ASCII or ANSI character coding with your number pad.



Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #13 –
I just went though my latest issue of Sheet Music Magazine (Winter 2009). Of the 15 songs, 14 had chords. None of the 14 had the chords vertically aligned for the entire song. Every song had some chord symbols that had to be moved up to avoid notes, slurs or triplet brackets. This makes Lyrics a poor place to enter chords.

It is a good idea to use a separate layer for the chords. That makes it easy to select a whole system worth and align them without bothering dynamics, tempi, and unrelated text.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #14 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Rike, for entering chord symbols, there are two very easy ways.
.
.
Quote from: Rick G. –
It is a good idea to use a separate layer for the chords.

Thanks a lot David, second is better for me. But I think that there is a third way (maybe started by Rick?) to do this and for better decision I'd like to know and see it too. I thought that third is using separate layer for "text" chords. But I don't know how to merge it with selected stave when printing best... And sometimes changing of vertical position is needed, for example in high-strings (violins) chords are needed more upper than in bass stave.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Rike –
I will try. It's awfully hard for me to understand what you wrote, for example, what does mean twice used "NB"?

NB is shorthand for "Nota Bene" - it means to take special note of something.

To make things work the way I have described you need to use layering.

To modify the *Chord fonts I'd probably need to make a new font as the letter H is currently used for the Maj.6/9 symbol.  Therefore I'd need to move that symbol to make space for the logical location of the "H" available.  To do this to the existing font would cause problems for others so a new one would be required.

Stay tuned - I really am busy at the moment, but give me a week or so and I should be able to come up with something - both for the font AND for an example of my description above.

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
NB is shorthand for "Nota Bene" - it means to take special note of something.
At a choir rehearsal a few years ago, "NB" was on the music but I didn't recognize there was nothing else significant anywhere near it.  When he asked what NB meant I gave the above explanation (Nota Bene).  At the end he just added, "Here it also means, No Breath."  Oops!
Since 1998

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Stay tuned - I really am busy at the moment, but give me a week or so and I should be able to come up with something - both for the font AND for an example of my description above.

No problem, I will wait. Thanks a lot :-)

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #18 –
Quote
You forgot in Europe very frequently (mainly!) used "Italian" system of notation - CDEFGAH.

Italian? Are you kidding? ;-)

The use of "H" is nordic: Germany and above. (Do you remember B-A-C-H?)
In Italy we use do, re, mi ,fa sol, la, si (absolutely never "ti").
So, Lawrie, since you're at it, could you please consider this too? :-)

Indeed I had to modify Andrew's transpose chord tool: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=6320.0

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #19 –
And then there's the letter S (for Eb). Dmitri Shostakovich fans would certainly insist on it being included ;-)

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #20 –
Better give me some specific details guys...  Including text examples.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Italian? Are you kidding? ;-)

Sorry, my mistake in interpretation. We can call using "H" as "germanic" or "nordic" (I think also not exact) system but no change of idea ;-)
We call system with "H" as "classic". At school also as italian-based (I don't know why)... So therefore... it's messy:-) But Lawrie understands:-)

Lawrie, should you tell me, what software did you use for creating TTF fonts? Maybe more individual changes are better for me (for example we don't use small tringle as "maj"), so if you as owner of copyright will agree, I can change it by myself for own use... But I think, that above explained "H" is usable and important for many others users from Europe.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #22 –
Quote
Better give me some specific details guys...  Including text examples.

Lawrie, in order to have uniformity of typecase to have both H (as B natural) and B (as Bb) can be useful for someone (e.g. Rike).

In my case I would need all the letters for "do", "re", "mi", "fa", "sol", "la", "si" and, to be flexible, in both upper and lower case (it's a matter of taste)... and possibly in the corresponding ASCII position.
Obviously impossible.
N.B. I was kidding!

What a pity we can not mix two fonts on a single text object: the note name from a normal text font and the chord "type" from your font.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #23 –
G'day Rike,
Quote from: Rike –
No problem, I will wait. Thanks a lot :-)

OK, took a few minutes to create an example.

Please find attached an NWC file and 3 PDFs - the PDFs were created directly from the NWC file by printing to PDFCreator.  There is NO post processing.

For the 3 PDFs I changed the selection of hidden versus visible staves and layered the instrument staff over the lyric staff, then printed.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Lawrie, in order to have uniformity of typecase to have both H (as B natural) and B (as Bb) can be useful for someone (e.g. Rike).

In my case I would need all the letters for "do", "re", "mi", "fa", "sol", "la", "si" and, to be flexible, in both upper and lower case (it's a matter of taste)... and possibly in the corresponding ASCII position.
Obviously impossible.
N.B. I was kidding!

What a pity we can not mix two fonts on a single text object: the note name from a normal text font and the chord "type" from your font.

OK, what I've been thinking about is:

Chrmapped toSymbol
A-A
B-B
C-C
D-D
E-E
F-F
G-G
H-H
a-la
b-si
c-do
d-re
e-mi
f-fa
g-sol
The problem with this is one of the symbols currently mapped to 'a' to 'g' (actually, the flat is mapped to 'b') will need to be moved - this will create a significant mismatch with the current *Chord fonts.  The other way is to create yet another font file with 'A' to 'G' re-mapped for sol-fa and leave the rest where they are.  Thus there would be a *Chord, *ChordItalian and a *ChordDeutsch (I'm open to better names...)

Note that all the lower case English alphabet letters are there but the normal 'b' is a flat and 'x' is a double sharp.  The actual 'b' and 'x' are Ä (chr0196) and Æ (chr0198) respectively

Have I matched the sol-fa correctly?  I don't use it myself so am not aware of the correct relationship - I assume this is what's called "Fixed Do"?

Rike,
I use FontCreator Pro - reasonable price and easy for me to understand the basics...

As for the triangle for Major, I usually use 'M' myself (and 'm' for minor) - the triangle was included for completeness.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #25 –
Hmm, been thinking some more about the sol-fa - how about:

Chrmapped toSymbol
A-A
B-B
C-C
D-D
E-E
F-F
G-G
H-H
l-la
t-si
d-do
r-re
m-mi
f-fa
s-sol
This way, I could use a single additional *Chord font - say *ChordEuro - and satisfy both needs - of course, the Transpose Chords user tool would need a rewrite to suit...

Down side is there is only a single case available for the sol-fa symbols - so is upper case or lower case or mixed case preferred?

E.G.
"do", "DO" or "Do"

I would also need to find some alternate locations for the displaced d, r, m, f, s, l and t in case they're needed to create other things like m (minor) etc.. 

What about Roman Numerals?  Is this a good thing to add too?  Of course it would have to have both cases: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII and i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi and vii - Do I create 14 symbols or just use the letters?

I need some suggestions and feedback guys or I'll miss something and it'll be a flop.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #26 –
The thing is not so easy, so I need some to think carefully about it.

My very first draft idea (absolutely unpondered yet) is to have all the letters (upper & lower case) and numbers at their places, so you can write whatever you want (A, B, C... H... do, re, mi, Do , Re, Mi... I, II, III, IV...) and mapping the symbols to the remaining keys.
I think that using the upper ANSI part (128 <= chars < 256) can be tricky for... "non programmers".
Are the ASCII symbols enough to map everithing? I didn't count them but I don't think so.
As I told before, this is just a draft of an idea...

Quote
Have I matched the sol-fa correctly?

Yes Lawrie, you did.
But why you talk about sol-fa?
I'd rather talk about la-sol (i.e. A..G) or, as we do usually, do..si (UT queant laxis / REsonare fibris / MIra gestorum / FAmuli tuorum...).

By the way: are the French still using UT?

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
OK, took a few minutes to create an example.
Good afternoon Lawrie,

wonderful, thanks a lot, a understand all I needed :-)

Quote
I use FontCreator Pro - reasonable price and easy for me to understand the basics...
Thanks for tip.

Quote
My very first draft idea (absolutely unpondered yet) is to have all the letters (upper & lower case) and numbers at their places, so you can write whatever you want (A, B, C... H... do, re, mi, Do , Re, Mi... I, II, III, IV...) and mapping the symbols to the remaining keys.
Yes, I think, that this idea is more universal. Let all letters and numbers on expected place and special symbols to have elsewhere in map.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #28 –
Lawrie, I like your first ideas for a new "Eurofont" a lot. It strikes me that you have things in their proper places and that everything makes sense. Thanks for this little window into your methods - it's enjoyable watching a master work! I do think Roman numerals would be useful for theory students, but I'm not sure where to put them.

Flurmy, I suspect Lawrie uses "sol-fa" because that's the name of the system of vocal sight-reading using the do-re-mi syllables that's taught in most English-speaking countries. (Officially, it's "tonic sol-fa," but the full name is rarely seen.) I believe you have something similar in Italy, called "solfeggio."

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #29 –
Quote
I suspect Lawrie uses "sol-fa" because that's the name of the system of vocal sight-reading using the do-re-mi syllables that's taught in most English-speaking countries. (Officially, it's "tonic sol-fa," but the full name is rarely seen.) I believe you have something similar in Italy, called "solfeggio."

Wow, I didn't know that "solfeggio" is called "sol-fa" in english.
Thank you Bill!

In italian there is also the term "solfa" (no dash) that means melody, singsong, lullaby... and rigmarole. :-)

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #30 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
The thing is not so easy, so I need some to think carefully about it.

My very first draft idea (absolutely unpondered yet) is to have all the letters (upper & lower case) and numbers at their places, so you can write whatever you want (A, B, C... H... do, re, mi, Do , Re, Mi... I, II, III, IV...) and mapping the symbols to the remaining keys.
I think that using the upper ANSI part (128 <= chars < 256) can be tricky for... "non programmers".
Are the ASCII symbols enough to map everithing? I didn't count them but I don't think so.
As I told before, this is just a draft of an idea...

Yeah, gotta think carefully 'bout this...

Quote
But why you talk about sol-fa?
I'd rather talk about la-sol (i.e. A..G) or, as we do usually, do..si (UT queant laxis / REsonare fibris / MIra gestorum / FAmuli tuorum...).

By the way: are the French still using UT?

Thanks Bill, you got it.  I have no idea what the French use, being an Aussie I barely speak English (according to the Brits) let alone any other languages...  ;)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #31 –
OK, please find attached a PDF of the SwingChord font mappings, with ASCII numbers and text font equivalent characters.

As you will see, there are lots of unused character positions where additions could be made, but for the proposed *ChordEuro font to make sense, the letters for the chords will at least have to be logical or it will be a pain to use.  Same goes for do-re-mi and Roman numeral locations.

I am inclined to go for specific glyphs for each of do, re mi.. and I, i, II, ii, III, iii etc. as this will make it possible to more easily modify the chord transposition user tool to take all alternatives into account.   D'oh!  The Roman Numerals don't need transposition capability - what was I thinking?

What is the concensus?  One font to try and do the lot, or separate fonts for Germanic (H), Italian (do re mi) and Roman numeral alternatives?  Or maybe 2 fonts, Germanic and Italian - both with I, i, V and v in their normal positions for the Roman numeral constructs, or back to one font with I, i, V and v in their normal positions..?  Any other possibilities?

Do we really need multiple case options for the sol-fa syllables?  My own thought on this is to have mixed case: Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si (actually, we use Ti but it ain't primarily for us).

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #32 –
Lawrie:

You chord utility users have specific needs.
I would suggest separate utilities for the various users.
I would never use the H version or the sol-fa version and would only have occasional use for the Roman numeral version.
(Only because I know a pianist from Europe who prefers that method).
Trying to make sense of the keystroke patterns that would be necessary to make one utility for all systems defeats the purpose - it's too complex.

Probably means extra work for you to produce several versions but that way you dont compromise what you already have.

-----
Barry

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #33 –
Sorry but as yet I had no time to dig the matter as needed.
Anyway, thank you very much Lawrie for all your works.

Quote
One font to try and do the lot, or separate fonts for Germanic (H), Italian (do re mi) and Roman numeral alternatives?

At first I was leaning toward all in a single file, but using different files for different standards has a couple of big advantages:
1) if you want to change standard you simply change the user font. Nothing more.
2) Even when changing standard, all the relevant tools need not be changed at all. That char means that chord in whatever standard you use.

Quote
Do we really need multiple case options for the sol-fa syllables?  My own thought on this is to have mixed case: Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si

Of course it's a matter of personal taste (I saw everything and the opposite), but my opinion is that one version could be enough and mixed case can be OK.

Quote
Probably means extra work for you to produce several versions but that way you dont compromise what you already have.

That's another advantage...

I use indifferently both the A..G and the Do..Si system, but some of the guys that play with me feel more comfortable with Do..Si, so an easy way to switch system is welcome.
(Indeed: https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=6320.0)
I never use(d) the "H" system.
Sometimes I need the roman numerals.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #34 –
G'day Flurmy,
Quote from: Flurmy –
At first I was leaning toward all in a single file, but using different files for different standards has a couple of big advantages:
1) if you want to change standard you simply change the user font. Nothing more.
2) Even when changing standard, all the relevant tools need not be changed at all. That char means that chord in whatever standard you use.

Of course it's a matter of personal taste (I saw everything and the opposite), but my opinion is that one version could be enough and mixed case can be OK.
OK, then one font for A-H (move the M6/9), another for Do..Si (do I move the M6/9 or leave it where it is for compatibility with the existing font?) and another for I-VII...

However, I-VII never needs to be transposed, so I could just re-implement the I and V characters and move the M6 and M9(#5) characters in both the A-H and Do..Si fonts.  BUT, if I implement I-VII as a separate font in the A-G locations, then that method can be easily implemented by simply changing font and transposing the text so that "I" (A) is the key signature... (I.E. if in the key of D, D chords need to be "I" but they'll actually be "IV" so you'd need to transpose the text chords as if you were changing key from D to A - up 7 or down 5 semitones)  Of course, this doesn't allow for the use of i-vii for minor chords.


Quote
That's another advantage...

I use indifferently both the A..G and the Do..Si system, but some of the guys that play with me feel more comfortable with Do..Si, so an easy way to switch system is welcome.
I never use(d) the "H" system.
Sometimes I need the roman numerals.

It seems to me that implementing A-H and Do-Si is easy.  The Roman numerals is a bigger challenge.  BTW, Andrew's transpose chords user tool WILL need a modification for the A-H version given that B is really what I'd call Bb and H is what I'd call B.  E.G. to transpose H down one semitone it becomes B rather than Hb - or perhaps a clearer example would be transposing up a semitone from English Bb - B becomes H...

More comments please guys - the aim is to keep things as simple and user friendly as possible.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #35 –
Hi Lawrie -

I love the idea of being able to translate easily among different chord-naming systems by merely changing fonts. But I'm not sure I see any point in adding a Roman numeral font into that mix. The use of I-VII chord designations is quite different from the use of A-G chord designations. I-VII designations are used in analysis, to determine what function a chord serves in the current key; A-G designations (and equivalent systems) are used in performance, to tell a performer what specific chord to play at a given point in a piece, without regard to the key. To use I-VII symbols properly, you first have to specify a key, so you still need the A-G symbols. The two systems don't even appear in the music in the same place (performers' chord symbols appear above the staff; analysts' symbols appear below it). In fact, in my life, the two systems often coexist in the same music - one to tell me what chord to play on the guitar or the piano or the harp, the other to help me figure out what the hell is going on at any given point in the music - either to help with interpretation, or just because I'm incurably curious.

I think a Roman numeral font based on the A-G chord positions would confuse things more than it would help. Just my opinion....

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #36 –
I have no idea if I agree or disagree with Bill that roman numerals are used in analysis, rather than performance.  I was curious enough to look around for info re "figured bass" based on some vestigial childhood memory of a music teacher talking about it way back yonder.

For what it's worth, Lawrie, this page http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory18.htm seems to be a comprehensive discussion of roman numeral figured bass.  It might help with your planning of a roman numeral font design.

(I think I'd just use an ordinary Times Roman font, though, although it might not be really adequate.)

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #37 –
Hi David -

Nice page on figured bass. But figured bass isn't the same thing as Roman numeral analysis.

Figured bass was a means of telling a performer which specific notes to place above a bass line - the composer just wrote the bass line and the figures (which indicated intervals above the bass), and let the performer choose the voice leading. It was similar to chord names in a lead sheet, except there were no chord names in the figured bass days, because harmonic theory hadn't been born yet. Figured bass is a contrapuntal technique, not a harmonic technique. It took Jean-Philippe Rameau's theory of tonic, dominant, subdominant, etc., formulated in the early 17th century, to come up with the idea of chords - before that, composers thought they were just writing independent lines that would fit together nicely if you put them certain intervals apart. I, IV, V, etc., are just different terms for tonic, subdominant, dominant, etc. - in other words, chord functions, not chord names.

Ooog. Late at night, bed is calling, and I'm probably not explaining things very well. But I thought I should post this before the issue gets too confused. The only point I'm really trying to make is that figured bass symbols are performance instructions - like lead sheet symbols - but that Roman numerals are not.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #38 –
Bil said:-

Quote
The use of I-VII chord designations is quite different from the use of A-G chord designations. I-VII designations are used in analysis, to determine what function a chord serves in the current key; A-G designations (and equivalent systems) are used in performance, to tell a performer what specific chord to play at a given point in a piece, without regard to the key.

My Hungarian pianist would disagree.
The I-VII system of chord naming allows him to play in ANY key from a one simple chord chart.
He has the advantage of knowing what the I-VII chords are in every key.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #39 –
Errata corrige:
Quote
Sometimes I need the roman numerals.

Nope. I never actually used it.
I just saw them once (in a lifetime) for the use we are talking here.
When I needed them was to indicate parts, in which case a good old plain text element is all that's needed...

Second errata: I was thinking of two fonts; one with A, B, C... and the other with A, H, C...
I completely forgot that if B = H then Bb = B. (And it was me that wrote "do you remember B-A-C-H"!)

I need to think more about it.
Sorry mates, lately I have my brain partially disconnected. :-(

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #40 –
As mentioned above (but apparently unnoticed) you still need 'S' for Eb in the German system. :-(

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #41 –
Quote
As mentioned above (but apparently unnoticed) you still need 'S' for Eb in the German system.

Really?
I didn't know that, not to say having saw it in use.
I read it in your previous message but I was thinking it was a Dmitri Shostakovich's prerogative...

By the way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note says nothing about it.
 

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Peter Edwards –
As mentioned above (but apparently unnoticed) you still need 'S' for Eb in the German system. :-(

OT: sorry, Peter, but I used so called "german system" through my life, but never saw written "S" for Eb. Should you tell me where you saw or used that?
My "system" is corresponding with this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Note#History_of_note_names
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Scales (yes we pronounce E-flat like "s", but never write...)

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #43 –
G'day Bill,
I think I'd like to have the Roman Numeral font - even if people only ever used it for analysis, it would still be a useful tool.  That's also why the lack of lower case i-vii would be frustrating - the studies I've been doing recently use the lower case for minor rather than using, say, IIm.  ii is easier than IIm...

G'day Barry,
could you ask your Hungarian mate whether he'd prefer ii to IIm etc.?  Given he works this way his insight would be invaluable.  BTW, I think you're right about separate fonts rather than trying to do it in one.

G'day Peter,
I did spot your 'S' reference and then promptly forgot about it - sorry.  Given that you seem to disagree with Rike, do you have practical experience with this usage?

G'day Rike,
do you have a suggestion for an appropriate name for the Germanic type font?  To be consistent with my other offerings it would need to be something like "SwingChordDeutsch" - the Do-Si variants will probably be called "SwingChordDoSi" etc.  (When this gets off the ground there will be SwingChord, MusikChordSans and MusikChordSerif versions).  I think making it specifically a *Deutsch name would possibly be misleading given that other nationalities also use the system, but calling it *Euro is also inappropriate as not all European nations use the system...

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #44 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
do you have a suggestion for an appropriate name for the Germanic type font?  To be consistent with my other offerings it would need to be something like "SwingChordDeutsch" - the Do-Si variants will probably be called "SwingChordDoSi" etc.  (When this gets off the ground there will be SwingChord, MusikChordSans and MusikChordSerif versions).  I think making it specifically a *Deutsch name would possibly be misleading given that other nationalities also use the system, but calling it *Euro is also inappropriate as not all European nations use the system...

Hallo Lawrie,
although I never used name "german scale" for calling our "H"-major, I think that name "SwingChordGerman" or "SwingChordGermanic" (not Deutsch, because prefer for better comprehensibility stay in full-english titles) is best for understand. You can write a small legend, that this system is for Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia etc. and there's no problem.
As offtopic, are you willing to permit me make a website of NWC in my native language (Czech)? I think that this can help to expand of NWC as cheap and powerful editor in my country...

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #45 –
Hi guys -

OK, it's morning, and I'm thinking a bit more clearly (although my kids would never believe that, having seen me in the morning....)

First, for Peter: there is no "S" in the "German system." The designation for Eb in German is "Es" (Ebb, "Ess"), and composers have used the similarity of that sound to the letter "S" to musically "spell" as much of a word as possible (e.g., for "Shostakovitch" we would have, in the English system, Eb-B-_-Eb-_-A-_____-C-B: fill in the blanks with whatever you like, or leave them out).

Second, for Barry: I doubt that your Hungarian friend would disagree at all. The reason he can use Roman numerals to transpose so easily is precisely because they are analytical rather than performance-oriented. They give the function of each chord in the place in the music where it is found. "C" is a I chord in the key of C, but a IV chord in the key of G and a bVIII in the key of D. Similarly, "ii" is a Cm chord in Bb, but an Am chord in G and an F#m chord in E. And so forth. There are many refinements and complications, which I won't trouble you with at the moment. (Well, maybe just one example: if you raise the third of a ii chord - say, play F# instead of F in a D chord in the key of C major - the chord is now properly called a "V of V" - that is to say, the dominant of the dominant. You can see where that might go.) I can definitely see a how performer who had memorized the functions of each chord in each key might prefer to see the Roman numeral designations so that he could transpose the tune at will by merely playing the chords with the same the functions in the new key. But that doesn't change the fact that these are analytical tools, not performance tools. In fact, it highlights the reason why I don't see the advantage of creating a font especially for them. They don't change when you transpose. A I chord is always a I chord, no matter what its letter designation is - and a C chord is always a C chord, no matter what its Roman numeral designation might be. There isn't a one-to-one correspondence between the two systems.

Third, for Lawrie: having read the paragraph directly above, addresed to Barry, you may begin to see the complications. That description merely scratches the surface. There are things like French 6ths and Italian 6ths, and the functions of pivot chords during modulations (they get two numeral designations), and the difficulty of determining the root (hence the numeral designation) for augmented and diminished chords, and on and on and on. And if you put the numerals in the A through H letter spaces, you require users to use a second font, because these letters are still needed to designate the key, which may change during the course of the music, and without which the numerals are meaningless. It isn't a simple system, and - I need to emphasize this again - there isn't a simple relationship between the other systems you are making fonts for and this one. That being said, the choice is clearly yours about whether to make a Roman numeral font or not. It may have some usefulness. Just don't think of it as an extension of the exchangeable system of chord-letter fonts you're making, because it isn't.

If you do go ahead, the question of "IIIm" vs "iii" is easily answered: stick with "iii." "IIIm" is meaningless. Historically, all chords - major and minor - got capital Roman numerals. In a major key, I, IV, and V were assumed to be major chords; II, III and VI were assumed to be minor; and VIII was assumed to be diminished. If you used a major chord in place of one of the minor chords, you either assigned it its new function ("V of V," etc.) or put a small # after the chord to indicate that the third was raised: II# in the key of C meant D, not Dm. Similarly, IVb in the key of C would mean Fm instead of F. That was the way things were in the early '60s, when I took my undergraduate theory courses. By the time I got to grad school in the late '60s, some writers were beginning to use the lower case letters for minor and diminished chords: I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viii (or viiio). To indicate a raised third, you could either change to upper case, or add the #, or both. I think most writers today use lower-case letters for minor chords. (Many advocate extending this to letter chords: cm instead of Cm, for example.) But an "m" or an "M" after a Roman numeral is never used, and I think it's safe to use the word "never" there.

Ah, well....scratch me very deep and the theoretician pours out. I love this stuff. Sorry if I've bored some of you. But I do hope it helps clarify things a little.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #46 –
Thank you William for clearing that up. I was just hearing the sound in my head and trusting Dmitri to be 'honest'. Nevertheless we might still need an 'S' but in lower case since the German notation for Eb is Es.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #47 –
G'day Rike,
Quote from: Rike –
Hallo Lawrie,
although I never used name "german scale" for calling our "H"-major, I think that name "SwingChordGerman" or "SwingChordGermanic" (not Deutsch, because prefer for better comprehensibility stay in full-english titles) is best for understand. You can write a small legend, that this system is for Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Russia etc. and there's no problem.
I think I'd prefer the name to be less specific to a countries name - is there a more generic name perhaps?  If I remember my geography correctly the countries mentioned are pretty much all Eastern European ones?  If so, how about SwingChordEastEuro?


Quote
As offtopic, are you willing to permit me make a website of NWC in my native language (Czech)? I think that this can help to expand of NWC as cheap and powerful editor in my country...

That's not my call, I'm just a user like you.  Best to send a message to noteworthyonline.


G'day Bill,
hmm, having read what you've said I think I'd REALLY like to hear what Barry's Hungarian friend is used to - that will probably be my best practical guide...

G'day Peter,
you make a good point.  Perhaps Rike can give me a more accurate idea as to exact usage.  E.G. are all flats represented by an s (excluding B of course)?  What about sharps?  Still # or something else?

Rike - I'd really appreciate an exact translation  something like:
Ab = ?
A = A
A# = ?
Bb = B
B = H
B# = ?
Cb = ?
C = C
C# = ?
Db = ?
D = D
D# = ?
Eb = Es (?)
E = E
E# = ?
Fb = ?
F = F
F# = ?
Gb = ?
G = G
G# = ?

What about double flats and double sharps?  I need to know all of 'em.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #48 –
Hi Lawrie -

Yes, it would probably be good to hear from Barry's Hungarian friend before proceeding on the Roman numeral font.

As far as letter names go, here's a chart:

English:   C  D  E  F  G  A  B
German:  C  D  E  F  G  A  H
French:    ut ré mi fa sol la si
Italian:    do re mi fa sol la si

In speaking German (or writing spoken German) you add the syllable "is" to indicate a sharp and "es" to indicate a flat: i.e., C# = "C-sharp" = "Cis"; Cb = "C-flat" = "Ces." Exceptions are Bb, which is just "B," Ab, which is "As," and Eb, which is "Es." Double flats are made by adding another "es," double sharps by adding another "is." The musical symbols are the same as in English, so you would write, e.g., "C#" but call it "Cis" instead of "C-sharp." As far as I know, "H" never takes a flat sign: our Bb is "B" and our Bbb is "Bb."

In French, sharp is "dièse" and flat is "bémol," so C-sharp is "ut dièse" and E-flat is "mi bémol" (and so on). Again, the symbols, when you write them, are the same as in English: ut#, mib. You say "double sharp" or "double flat" the same way you would in English: "double-dièse," "double-bémol" - although, of course, the French pronounce "double" differently than we do. (We Americans probably pronounce it differently than you Australians do, for that matter.)

I suggest we wait for Flurmy to give us the Italian, although I think I know what it is. I also suggest that you run all this by someone who speaks German and someone who speaks French - I only speak music, and I'm not 100 per cent sure I got everything right. But it should give you a start.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Entering Chord Names

Reply #49 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
G'day Rike,I think I'd prefer the name to be less specific to a countries name - is there a more generic name perhaps?  If I remember my geography correctly the countries mentioned are pretty much all Eastern European ones?  If so, how about SwingChordEastEuro?
No, not all of countries are classifiable as "Eastern Europe". For example Germany is "Western Europe", Czech Republic is "Central Europe" and earlier mentioned Sweden is "Northern Europe". Coutries, which use "H"-major adopted germanic bases of music. Some of them because of history (Czech Republic was through many centuries under government of German-speaking countries), some of them felt it as the best to use... So no geography correlation, only historical (you can find many articles about Austria-Hungary, Prussia etc., if you need:-) ).
I cannot find any other coherence for the name than historical roots of music. So if you use German (Germanic) as adjective, there won't be any primary relation to Germany as a country for us. We are consentient with our bloody german history;-)

Quote
That's not my call, I'm just a user like you.  Best to send a message to noteworthyonline.
Yes, thank you.

Quote
Rike - I'd really appreciate an exact translation something like:
Ab = as (name of notes are written as small letters)
A = a
A# = ais
Bb = b
B = h
B# = his
Cb = ces
C = c
C# = cis
Db = des
D = d
D# = dis
Eb = es
E = e
E# = eis
Fb = fes
F = f
F# = fis
Gb = ges
G = g
G# = gis

Quote
What about double flats and double sharps?  I need to know all of 'em.
You can easily understand this system. Expected your B and E, we use for sharp suffix "-is" and for flat suffix "-es". In case "E", there is divergence in flat - "ees" reads stupidly, so "es" is used. And in case "B" - as you know, we call it "h", flat "b" and sharp "his".

Double flats and double sharp = add suffix twice:
your Abb - asas (due to reading)
Bbb - heses (NOT "bes"!)
Cbb - ceses
Dbb - deses
Ebb - eses
Fbb - feses
Gbb - geses

A## - aisis
B## - hisis
C## - cisis
D## - disis
E## - eisis
F## - fisis
G## - gisis

These are names of notes. But chords we mainly write near like you - Ab, F#, H, Db... but doesn't read as you.
Some examples of other chords:
F#mi (F# minor), D7maj or Dmaj7, Bdim, Ami7/5-...

I hope I wrote it intelligible and without mistakes:-)