Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

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Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

2011-12-30 01:53 pm

In this snippet, the violin is silent after the cadenza is finished. On the print preview there are only two measures on the last staff. I tried to insert a line break a few measures before the end so more measures would appear on the final line, but nothing happened.

TIA

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #1 – 2011-12-30 03:22 pm

I think the system break only works on the top staffs and on bar lines, but I don't see any bar lines in the top staff between measure 348 and measure 365. The bounded 18 rests seem to prevent the layout that you want to achieve.

Bart

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #2 – 2011-12-30 03:37 pm

Quote from: Bart – 2011-12-30 03:22 pm

system break only works on the top staffs

Correct. The top staff is the controlling staff. It is the only place where system breaks can be forced. This is true even when the top staff is collapsed.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #3 – 2011-12-30 03:40 pm

Here's one way.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #4 – 2011-12-30 04:17 pm

Rich and I had the same idea. I won't upload my fix, which is identical to his. However, while creating it I noticed an annoyance that I would classify as a bug. If a staff ends with an MMR, you cannot place the cursor at the end of the staff. Pressing <End> leaves you hanging near the beginning of the MMR. So does pressing the right-arrow from the left end of the MMR. If you try to move the cursor up from the next staff down, it just jumps backward to that same hanging spot. To insert a barline after the MMR, you have to insert it while the cursor sits (in this case) 12 measures away from the barlines in the other staves that you're trying to match. The mildest thing I can say about that is that it's counterintuitive. I think it needs attention.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #5 – 2011-12-30 04:21 pm

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2011-12-30 03:40 pm

Here's one way.

Fantastic! I'll be resubmitting the whole thing shortly as there are many places the violin is out for many measures.

William: I saw there was your reply after entering the above and I agree with you.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #6 – 2011-12-30 05:25 pm

It occurs to me that there is another way !

Have a top staff which is purely a controlling staff consisting of whole note rests. At the very start, place a collapse. You can then place as many system breaks as you need, where you need. The staff will never be printed since there is the collapse staff at the beginning.

When wanting to print out the solo instrument part, just select the instrument and then the MMR bars will be shown in their entirety (in this case 18) rather than being split into 2 mmrs.

I'm having trouble replicating Bill's issue with mmrs. If I load Warren's original nwc file, press <end> on the violin staff, then on my setup, I do go to the end. If I position the cursor on the measure numbered 365, on the RH Grand staff and press page up, then I am still at the very end of the violin staff after the mmr marking ends. (or am I mis-understanding the issue?)

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #7 – 2011-12-30 05:52 pm

Rich, did you try it with a partial staff? That is, in your (our) example, after the 12-bar MMR is created but before the 6-bar MMR that comes after it? Trying to place the barline after the first MMR was where the problem showed up.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #8 – 2011-12-30 06:01 pm

This is the best I can manage.

Where does the weird bar numbering (346) for the Cadenza come from?

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #9 – 2011-12-30 06:06 pm

I don't seem to have any difficulty.

Tried two different things :

1. Positioned the cursor at the measure marked 347, at the end. Right arrow took me to between the barline and the collapse notification. A further right arrow took me to after the 12 mmr but before the bar line.
Another right arrow took me after the bar line but before the 6 mmr. A further right arrow took me to the end of the staff.

2. Removed 6mmr and replaced 12 with 18 as the original. Highlighted 18 mmr and edited to replace with 12. A right arrow took me out of the highlight to the end of the staff. I pressed [ to create a 6 mmr which left me at the end. A left arrow took me to between the two mmrs where I placed a barline.

Is this different to your experience ?

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #10 – 2011-12-30 06:45 pm

Quote from: Haymo – 2011-12-30 06:01 pm

Where does the weird bar numbering (346) for the Cadenza come from?

During the cadenza of a concerto, the soloist is in his own world and can do anything with the tempo--a conductor won't be doing anything. Often barlines are not even used. Orchestra members may only see a whole rest with a fermata over it (reason the bar numbers don't change) with the text cadenz and perhaps the soloist's last notes as cues.

By convention, the cadenza will end with a trill and the conductor will count the last few beats and get the orchestra back in.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #11 – 2011-12-30 06:49 pm

Warren,
thanks for the explanation about WHY,
now my Question:
HOW does one, in NWC 2.5, get multiple ocurences of the same bar number?

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #12 – 2011-12-30 06:58 pm

Quote from: Haymo – 2011-12-30 06:49 pm

now my Question:
HOW does one, in NWC 2.5, get multiple occurrences of the same bar number?

Select a barline, Cntl/E, click on Exclude From Bar Count.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #13 – 2011-12-30 07:24 pm

Thanks Warren.
I had a most geriatric "moment".
(Previously, quite frequently, used the "exclude" for a single bar line.)

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #14 – 2011-12-30 07:51 pm

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2011-12-30 06:06 pm

Is this different to your experience ?

Yes. When I load Warren's original example, I can't get the cursor to move beyond a short distance into the 18-bar MMR. When I load yours, the same thing happens with the 6-bar MMR - I can't get beyond the equivalent of about a measure into it with either the right-arrow key or the end key. If I position the cursor at the end of the top staff of the piano part and then hit the page up key, the cursor jumps backward to the spot it apparently loves just to the right of the beginning of the MMR. The end of the violin staff is unobtainable in any way except by inserting something there, and that has to be done back where the cursor insists on hanging out. (Incidentally, when I press Page Down with the cursor in that "sweet" [sour?] spot, it jumps to the end of the top staff of the piano part. So, obviously, NWC thinks it has placed the cursor at the end of the staff when it is sitting there near the beginning of the MMR.)

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #15 – 2011-12-30 08:02 pm

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2011-12-30 05:25 pm

It occurs to me that there is another way !

Have a top staff which is purely a controlling staff consisting of whole note rests. At the very start, place a collapse. You can then place as many system breaks as you need, where you need. The staff will never be printed since there is the collapse staff at the beginning.

When wanting to print out the solo instrument part, just select the instrument and then the MMR bars will be shown in their entirety (in this case 18) rather than being split into 2 mmrs.

I like that idea!

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #16 – 2011-12-30 10:04 pm

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-30 07:51 pm

So, obviously, NWC thinks it has placed the cursor at the end of the staff when it is sitting there near the beginning of the MMR.)

Not obvious. NWC puts the cursor after the last object on the staff. It doesn't treat the last MMR at the end of the staff differently than other ~~MMR's~~ objects. If you want to go to the physical end of the staff when you press End, put a barline there. I don't see a bug that is unique to going to the end of a staff. If the Goto Command lands in the middle of an MMR, NWC goes to a similarly "unintuitive" position.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #17 – 2011-12-31 02:12 am

Rick, when you're trying to get beyond the MMR to force a system break, you don't want the cursor to be stuck 18 measures back, forcing you to work blind. That's a flaw. Whether or not to call it a bug I won't argue.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #18 – 2011-12-31 02:56 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 02:12 am

That's a flaw.

The flaw I see is that 'Ending Bar:' wasn't removed from General Staff Properties a decade ago.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #19 – 2011-12-31 03:02 am

I'm lovin' this staff collapse feature. I often create 3-staff organ parts and have always wanted to suppress the pedal line when there is a long section with no pedal part. Just tried it on a piece where the pedal doesn't enter until measure 24. This feature rocks!

Jim

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #20 – 2011-12-31 03:22 am

I think you miss the point, Rick. When a user is working in one area of a staff, he or she doesn't want to be forced to be looking at another area altogether. The section of the score that is being changed should be visible while one is changing it. If I'm making changes to the end of a staff, I want the cursor at the end of the staff, not twenty bars back. If I'm moving the cursor up or down through several staves using page up or page down, I don't want my view suddenly shifting to a totally different part of the score just because I happened to pass the cursor through a staff with an MMR at the end of it (or in the middle of it, for that matter). IMHO, those are flaws. They have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you set the ending bar of the staff from General Staff Properties.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #21 – 2011-12-31 04:09 am

I agree, using PgUp, PgDn, Ctrl+Home and Ctrl+End to navigate MMR's is nasty. IMO, NWC would be improved if it remembered the cursor position. If the user is navigating staff to staff, the cursor should be returned to that position if it exists. Moving left/right across MMR's will cause drastic moves. Not much can be done about that, given the way they work.

I'm sorry that your comment:

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 02:12 am

Rick, when you're trying to get beyond the MMR to force a system break

led me to think that you were trying to set a SysBreak where no bar exists, such as here:

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|AddStaff
|RestMultiBar|NumBars:4|WhenHidden:ShowBars,ShowRests
|Boundary|Style:NewSystem
|AddStaff
!NoteWorthyComposer-End

I think most folks would expect the SysBreak at 4, rather than at 3.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #22 – 2011-12-31 04:22 pm

Bill and I have compared systems with videos/pictures. Whilst I see the issue that Bill has with the positioning of the cursor with respect to the MMR, I have to say that I have no such problem.

Strange .

Bill has Dell Studio 1558 laptop running Win7 Home Premium 64-bit with all updates installed
I have Packard Bell Laptop, Win 7 Home Premium 64 bit - with all updates installed.

Perhaps this is some sort of strange screen driver problem.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #23 – 2011-12-31 04:46 pm

To add to Rich's post: Here's a screenshot of Warren's original example taken after I have pressed <End> multiple times (or the right-arrow, or both - makes no difference). This is the furthest to the right that I can force the cursor in the top staff, using any means whatsoever, until something is added after the MMR. To add something after the MMR, I have to add it where the cursor currently sits, with the place in the score where it will actually land several screens away to the right. Grrrr.....

Bill

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #24 – 2011-12-31 05:14 pm

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 04:46 pm

Grrrr.....

You don't need a complex example. Something as simple as this will do:

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|AddStaff
|RestMultiBar|NumBars:4|WhenHidden:ShowBars,ShowRests
|AddStaff
!NoteWorthyComposer-End

The difference is that I don't ever have this situation. I always have a Bar object at the end of each staff. Just a difference in style, I guess.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #25 – 2011-12-31 05:23 pm

Thanks for posting this, Rick. It's good to know that someone else's system shows the same problem mine does (but Rich's doesn't). I'm not crazy. (My computer isn't crazy, either. ;-)

Bill

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #26 – 2011-12-31 06:05 pm

Just to be clear. Due to differences in the way you and I use NWC, where you would have:

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|AddStaff
|RestMultiBar|NumBars:4|WhenHidden:ShowBars,ShowRests
|AddStaff
!NoteWorthyComposer-End

I would have:

Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|AddStaff
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)
|RestMultiBar|NumBars:4|PrintOnce:Y|WhenHidden:ShowBars,ShowRests
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
|AddStaff
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
!NoteWorthyComposer-End

They look much the same, but IMO, mine is easier to navigate. To me, it is also more logical. End means end.

The other advantages:

The final system pads better
It looks better in the Viewer
Closed Special Endings look better
A Boundary Change can be added after it.

The way NWC works by default reminds me of a word processor that add a period by default. If you want to end with a question mark, you would need to access "Paragraph Properties" to change it. Grrrr.....

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #27 – 2011-12-31 06:34 pm

Interesting, Rick. I can see the advantages. I can also see one major disadvantage. With your method, if you're sitting at the beginning of a staff, or somewhere in the middle, and you want to work at the end, you have to press <End> and then the left-arrow. With the default method, you only have to press <End>. A small extra step, but still an extra step, and if you don't remember to do it, you're working out there beyond the section close. You're probably used to that and don't even think about it by now. I would have to adapt.

...and, of course, with the problem we're talking about here, when you press the left-arrow to drop back before the section close and insert something, you end up jumping back to the beginning of the MMR anyway....hmmmm....

These problems could probably be avoided by keeping a regular barline at the end, instead of a section close, and only changing it to a section close when the staff is complete. Perhaps this is the way you actually work. Seems worth trying. I may do so.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #28 – 2011-12-31 07:34 pm

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 06:34 pm

if [] you want to work at the end, you have to press <End> and then the left-arrow. You're probably used to that and don't even think about it by now.

Correct. I don't even think about it.

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 06:34 pm

...and, of course, with the problem we're talking about here, when you press the left-arrow to drop back before the section close and insert something, you end up jumping back to the beginning of the MMR anyway....hmmmm....

True, but I know where I am

At least it doesn't look like a "application hang." Don't get me wrong, navigating MMR's are proving to be a challenge. I just don't see a fix with the current infrastructure, so I'm trying to make do with the program I have.

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 06:34 pm

These problems could probably be avoided by keeping a regular barline at the end, instead of a section close, and only changing it to a section close when the staff is complete. Perhaps this is the way you actually work.

Nope. I always use 'Ending bar: Open (hidden)' and have done so for years.

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #29 – 2011-12-31 09:00 pm

FWIW I have exactly the same situation as Bill (on my HP laptop - haven't tested this on my other PC)

Re: Forcing line break under collapsed staff.

Reply #30 – 2012-01-03 08:33 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2011-12-31 05:23 pm

Thanks for posting this, Rick. It's good to know that someone else's system shows the same problem mine does (but Rich's doesn't). I'm not crazy. (My computer isn't crazy, either. ;-)

Now then! I have bought another laptop since at some time, my current one has to be sent away for repairs. I have begun to copy everything over.

The new laptop is a different make, but same size, same screen size, same operating system, different style keyboard.
This new laptop, shows exactly the same problem that Bill reports. It's really annoying. Now I know what Bill has been writing about.