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Topic: Feature request: marcato marking (Read 18752 times) previous topic - next topic

Feature request: marcato marking

I've done a search and found that this has been suggested before, but I don't believe it has yet been implemented.  Noteworthy supports staccato (dot), tenuto (line) and accent (greater than sign) but not marcato (top hat/caret sign).  It would seem not too hard to support, given that the others are there.  Could I request it be included as a candidate for the next build?

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #1 –
I agree with you. But the thing that I have never been able to understand is that the marcato music symbol has been available in the NoteWorthy font files for years - maybe from the beginning (the fonts for both version 1 and 2).

The symbol is at character 66d (42h) of the font sets.

So at least you can use the NoteWorthy font as a user font and use the marcato symbol from that as a text insert. As to why the symbol is in the NoteWorthy fonts but not available to insert from the program either with or without dynamic change is within the knowledge of perhaps only one person.

Rich.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #2 –
... and he ain't talkin'   (grin)


If you already have allocated all your user font choices, you may not have room to use one for the Noteworthy font set.

In that case, just use the character ^ in any of your fonts that are fairly plain text fonts.  It's on the shift of your 6 key. 

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #3 –
For staccato, tenuto, and hopefully a new symbol for marcato ...

...  How helpful it would be if the symbol's visual attribute could be controlled in the Note properties, i.e. made visible or invisible.

Example:

There are passages where groups of short notes (e.g., eighths) are interspersed with longer notes (e.g., quarters or halves).

They are _long_ passages.

The composer wants the 'short' notes to be played staccato, but not the longer notes.  But the score does _not_ show 'dots' on the short notes.

...  Consider a passage of several hundred notes, with mixed Staccato/Cantabile, scored on six separate staves for the full woodwind section, and you'll see what I mean. 

Inserting many dozens of invisible "Performance Style" marks, e.g. Staccato, Cantabile;  Staccato, Cantabile  ...  on and on, by the dozens, is a chore. 

All that's needed is to make the 'dots', 'dashes', 'carats', etc invisible.


Joe

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
...depending on the keyboard layout... ;-)

As I suddenly realize that I no longer remember where the ^ was on the keyboards in Ecuador...  Has it really been that long?
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #6 –
Quote
It would seem not too hard to support, given that the others are there.

Perhaps it's the others being there that actually make it harder to support, rather than easier as you assume!

  • Right now, I'm sure there is a bit of code to enforce that staccato and tenuto not be allowed to coexist with each other, while accent is optionally allowed with either.  Would you expect marcato to coexist with any of staccato, tenuto, or accent?  It would be a lot of work to handle too many new possible combinations, but I don't think marcato makes sense with any of these anyway.  So any time marcato were turned on, all the others would have to be turned off?  And any time any of the others were turned on, marcato would be turned off?
  • Even if marcato could be blocked from coexisting with staccato, tenuto, and accent, I'd assume one would still have to handle all possible combinations involving: stem up or down, grace note or not, and attribute on stem or not (and various stem lengths for this if yes)?  The differing sizes of the the attributes' font characters may not make it so easy to share code among these, and still get the attribute properly located horizontally and vertically in relation to the note head.
  • For audio purposes, what should marcato do?  I'd guess that marcato would be simplest to implement as a combination of accent and staccato.  So where accent increased note velocity, so should marcato the same way?  And where staccato decreased note duration, so should marcato the same way (including factoring in whether its under a slur or not?)?
  • And how about performance styles?  There already exists a marcato performance style, as well as styles for staccato and tenuto.  How would a marcato note be played if it were in a tenuto section?  Or a tenuto note in a marcato section?  And for both of these, what if the note is slurred?  Hopefully, a marcato note in a staccato section (or vice versa) would be considered as both asking for the same thing.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but perhaps you might want to document here what you're expecting, so if you ever get this feature, you'll get what you're expecting!

Quote
... the marcato music symbol has been available in the NoteWorthy font files for years ...

It occurs to me that the marcato symbol, unlike the accent, staccato, and tenuto symbols, is not vertically symmetrical!  So just like the fermata, one would have to add an upside-down marcato symbol to the font, before the right-side up marcato symbol would become truly usable?

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Randy Williams –
Perhaps it's the others being there that actually make it harder to support, rather than easier as you assume!
For audio purposes, what should marcato do?  I'd guess that marcato would be simplest to implement as a combination of accent and staccato.
Marcato is an articulation of force, not duration. It is stronger than accent. It is used with staccato and tenuto, but not accent. Since NWC already converts accents on notes with a velocity above 90 to 127, there is very little headroom for marcato.

Articulations have so many shortcomings that I no longer use them in serious work.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Randy Williams –
Maybe I'm overthinking this, but perhaps you might want to document here what you're expecting, so if you ever get this feature, you'll get what you're expecting!

I think possibly you are :-).  From my perspective, I don't think I've ever seen marcato set with accent or tenuto or whatever on a single note, but TBH I wouldn't care whether it was allowed or not.  If it's allowed, I can see it and turn off the other marking.  If not, I wouldn't miss it.  Also, from my perspective I wouldn't really mind whether it's performed or not - it's not as obvious as staccato and so wouldn't really matter.  It's really just a case of being able to notate with a really, really, really common notation.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #9 –
Quote
Marcato is an articulation of force, not duration.

The great authority on all things musical (Wikipedia :-) states first off:

Quote
Marcato (Italian for marked) is a form of staccato.

And I agree that marcato can generally not emphasize any more than accent, as accent is often already maxed out.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #10 –
Marcato is currently available in NWC as a performance style. Since marcato playing usually is called for over a complete passage, or at least over several notes (in contrast to accents, which are often just on single notes), I can live with this. The few times a note must be marked individually can be handled with text entries. IMHO, There are far more important things for Eric to concern himself with.

(Randy, in reference to your latest post, which came as I was writing this: marcato is not a form of staccato, no matter what Wikipedia says. The musical definition of marcato is is "emphasized." For string players, it generally means "bear down, and don't lift the bow off the string between notes."  For singers or wind players, it means "punch each note with the diaphragm." Notes played marcato generally sound quite distinct from each other, but this is a result of the technique, not a requirement of it.)

Bill

Re: Feature request: marcato marking, trills, vertical arpeggiation

Reply #11 –
I found that a while ago someone requested these features. I don't know if they have been implemented. If they have they are not visible on the program. If they have not, it would be wonderful if you would consider it:
   
o straight and dotted lines (for marking 8va and similes, etc) with tweakable ticks at the end
o extendable trill squiggles
o vertical arpeggiation squiggles (these would be very useful)
o vertical chording (straight lines with ticks)
o slants for glissandi (these would also be very useful)
o Marcato markings (top hat/caret sign). 

Thank you.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #12 –
Quote
Marcato is currently available in NWC as a performance style.

But I believe the marcato performance style is currently ignored on playback - it is basically no better than a text expression?

Quote
The musical definition of marcato is is "emphasized."

I knew that, musically, tenuto can be an articulation of force and/or of duration, depending on context.  I've seen information on the web (even other than Wikipedia :-) that indicates marcato can be so also.  But I just finally got a copy of Alfred's, and I see now that it limits marcato to force only.  I will have to reconsider my position on all this, including whether marcato can occur with other articulations.  (As an aside, I see that perhaps tenuto should be allowed with staccato!)

Quote
Notes played marcato generally sound quite distinct from each other, but this is a result of the technique, not a requirement of it.

I wonder.  If a human ends up playing marcato as "staccato", due to human technique restrictions, should not the computer play it as staccato, to emulate what a human can (and does) do, rather than what a robot might do?

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #13 –
On a rather lower level of authority my Collin's Concise Dictionarty of Music defines "marcato" as  'marked, emphatic'

Tony

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #14 –
Quote
I wonder.  If a human ends up playing marcato as "staccato", due to human technique restrictions, should not the computer play it as staccato, to emulate what a human can (and does) do, rather than what a robot might do?
If the human is playing a marcato as staccato they are playing it incorrectly. The notes played will both sound distinct, but the staccato note will be played at a shorter duration than a marcato note of the same duration. ie. half note, quarter, etc. When done correctly, the difference is in the force of the attack and that the note is held for it's full duration with the marcato.

Regards
Keith
Illigitimi Non Carborundum

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #15 –
Keith is correct. A properly played marcato is a tenuto with the attack emphasized. Because the attack is emphasized, you hear each note distinctly. But the note continues sounding, albeit at a lower volume level, until the next attack.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #16 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
A properly played marcato is a tenuto with the attack emphasized.
Then why is marcato combined with tenuto on the same note?

Marcato is also combined with staccato. This would seem to imply that marcato is not intended to modify 'note off'.
If marcato implies tenuto, then what articulation specifies strong attack with normal duration?
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #17 –
Others may have a different opinion, but I consider marcato combined with tenuto to be redundant. As a singer, I was trained that in a marcato passage I should keep the breath flowing but make the notes distinct. I guess if I were trying for a marcato effect but with longer gaps between the notes, I would write the passage as a series of normal notes with accents.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #18 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Others may have a different opinion
They do. I just asked my wife, a piccolo player who sees a fair amount of marcato in band music. She says: "Stress. No change in duration."
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #19 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Marcato is currently available in NWC as a performance style. Since marcato playing usually is called for over a complete passage, or at least over several notes (in contrast to accents, which are often just on single notes), I can live with this. The few times a note must be marked individually can be handled with text entries. IMHO, There are far more important things for Eric to concern himself with.

I (probably along with a great many other people) partially use Noteworthy to reproduce scores in order to re-use them.  It's therefore important to me that Noteworthy supports commonly used notation - and in almost any classical music, a marcato mark over/under the note is very common.  It's therefore very frustrating to me that NW does not support what must be a tiny variation in the program since it already supports the 3 similar features previously discussed.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #20 –
Phil,
I concur.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #21 –
As I said....;-)
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Others may have a different opinion

Phil and Lawrie, I certainly have no objection to having NWC support marcato symbols. I just think that, given the ease with which one can insert them with text, many other things that can't be fixed with text inserts should be given higher priority. I refer especially to improved slurs, and (for me) improved orchestral brackets.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #22 –
Quote
Since marcato playing usually is called for over a complete passage, or at least over several notes (in contrast to accents, which are often just on single notes), I can live with this. The few times a note must be marked individually can be handled with text entries.

In jazz you have to mark the notes individually when you are using several articulations.

Marcato is staccatto in that it requires the notes to be clearly separated.  It is also an accent, because the note should be attacked.  In the concert band world. 

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #23 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
The musical definition of marcato is is "emphasized." For string players, it generally means "bear down, and don't lift the bow off the string between notes."  For singers or wind players, it means "punch each note with the diaphragm." Notes played marcato generally sound quite distinct from each other, but this is a result of the technique, not a requirement of it.
I agree.

It is the responsibility of the synth to make its attack and decay correspond to the instrument it is trying to emulate. IMO, it would be a mistake for NWC alter its 'note off' for marcato. Users with bad synths should not expect NWC to compensate for them at the expense of users with better synths.

Quote from: David Palmquist –
In jazz you have to mark the notes individually when you are using several articulations.
Really? I would never have expected jazz conventions to be so rigid. Do you mean to imply that, in a section marked marcato, jazz players would see the first articulated note as a cancellation of the marcato marking?
Registered user since 1996

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #24 –
The marcato character already exists in the NWC font at the character position of upper Case B.
So it seems it was planned but never implemented.

I have to agree with David.
In Jazz it would be rare to see a text marking in place of individual articulation marks.

Re: Feature request: marcato marking

Reply #25 –
Quote
Do you mean to imply that, in a section marked marcato, jazz players would see the first articulated note as a cancellation of the marcato marking?
(Rick)

 and

Quote
I have to agree with David.  In Jazz it would be rare to see a text marking in place of individual articulation marks.
(Barry)

In jazz writing, I don't think you'd see the word "marcato" written out, but my experience is limited.  I've played a few hundred charts, but there are thousands out there.   I'm not sure ^ means the same thing in jazz that it does in legit music.  There's a good discussion of jazz notation here
http://bands.army.mil/masterclass/tusafb/dec2000/jazz.htm#artic/