notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Topic: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used. (Read 12791 times) previous topic - next topic

notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

2008-04-08 09:25 pm

I have read that certain tempo values can be calculated should one want to say play 5 sixteenths over a quarter beat. I am not concerned with playback as to maintaining the use of the audit barlines feature.
It seems that gracenotes are ignored. In the example above is there a way to cause audit barlines to ignore one of the sixteeths? Any easy work around? My end goal is too print the music.

PB

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #1 – 2008-04-09 12:41 am

The best way is to change the time signature and hide it. If it's in 3/4, insert a hidden time signature of 13/16 and go back to a hidden 3/4 after the pentuplet is over. Have you checked out this tip?

Welcome to the NWC community.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #2 – 2008-04-10 04:39 pm

Thanks for the tip. However my problem is not one of accurate audio replay. Doing as directed, above, it sounds great, but when applying the audit barlines, the program messes up. n-Tuplets are common. As I said gracenotes seem not to be counted and perhaps there is a way to make one of the 5 notes invisible to the auditor. Frankly this is a feature that needs to be incorporated; for auto-beam as well.
Any other ideas.

PB

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #3 – 2008-04-10 11:24 pm

G'day PB,
umm, changing the time signature as suggested should result in the audit barlines being OK - if you choose the correct time signature...

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #4 – 2008-04-11 01:20 am

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #5 – 2008-04-11 02:20 am

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2008-04-11 01:20 am

If you wanted the correct timing for the playback, you could insert a temporary tempo change. That only works if you make the tempo change affect all the staffs

Fortunately, this is not difficult as all Tempo changes always affect all staves. In this case, you would multiply the running tempo by 5/4 (125%) for the duration of the pentuplet.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #6 – 2008-04-11 04:58 am

I wonder if there's something else causing trouble with the Audit Barlines function. As Lawrie says, Warren's method should work. I've used it myself enough times to be pretty confident of that. Have you, perhaps, used a pickup? Audit Barlines won't work with pickup notes at the beginning of a piece; you have to temporarily remove them and then replace them after the audit. This is something that should probably be fixed (but it seems to me a lower priority than some other things, like getting the slurs right)....

Cheers,

Bill

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #7 – 2008-04-11 05:36 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2008-04-11 04:58 am

Audit Barlines won't work with pickup notes at the beginning of a piece; you have to temporarily remove them and then replace them after the audit. This is something that should probably be fixed

All you have to do is either put in invisible rests or an invisible double bar. 'Audit Bar Lines' would be improved if it would work on a selection, but I don't see how changing it to 'ignore everything up to the first bar line' would improve or fix it. Perhaps I'm just dense.

I agree that slurs should be fixed. Seeking the notehead is almost always wrong. Just having them seek mid-stem instead would be a considerable improvement.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #8 – 2008-04-12 07:52 am

I guess I am getting confused by changing tempo and time signature

In my example...
The staff is 4/4 and all notes are 8th.   The second beat is 5-tuplet. What I did was..
using 5/4= 1.25   I multiplied 1.25 by the tempo which was 80 and changed the tempo temporarily
to 100. Then back to 80 after the tuplet. This is why I said it "sounds right"

You all are saying I should change the time signature. But to what?   I tried this...
4/4 xxxx (5/4) xxxxx (4/4) xxxx xxxx where the x is an eight note.

when I use the audit barline feature I would expect to get...

4/4 xxxx (5/4) xxxxx|(4/4) xxxx xxxx but instead I get this   4/4 xxxx|5/4 xxxxx|4/4 xxxx xxxx

a bar of 4 eights, a bar of 5 eights, and finally a bar of 8 eighths. Perhaps someone can tell me what signature to use for bar 2 and how you derived it. Then
I think I will get it. Sorry for being so thick about this.

PB

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #9 – 2008-04-12 12:51 pm

Just change the time signature to accomodate the extra note. If you have five 8th notes which play in the space of two beats and the other two beats are normal, that would mean you have nine 8th notes in the measure. For that measure, use a time signature of 9/8.

I might revisit my attachment on the user tip after I get my regular computer back. Right now, only the "resting" line has a ghost time signature, but all staves would need it to use the audit bar lines feature.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #10 – 2008-04-12 02:50 pm

tsoilihoi

Quote

You all are saying I should change the time signature. But to what? I tried this...
4/4 xxxx (5/4) xxxxx (4/4) xxxx xxxx where the x is an eight note.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #11 – 2008-04-12 04:39 pm

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #12 – 2008-04-12 05:40 pm

You're welcome, Tsoilihoi. It looks good. Now just highlight the second and third time signatures, and change their properties to Visibility=Never (use Control-E for that).

Don't forget Warren's point re the other lines of a score, too.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #13 – 2008-04-12 06:54 pm

This would seem to be a better way to do Deguello's 32^nd 6-tuplet:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Text|Text:"Am"|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:11
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-1^
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Accent|Pos:-1^|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted,Accent|Pos:-1^|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Text|Text:"Dm"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:8
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-1^
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

but perhaps I am missing something.
Once the piece is complete, you can use digital whiteout to change the 3 into a 6.
Or just do this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=First|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd,Triplet=End|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

and leave them as triplets.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #14 – 2008-04-12 09:57 pm

One point, at least as I understand it. The OP wants the score for printing. But isn't it true that the use of an invisible time signature causes the following systems to lack any time signature? Will he/she not have to hand-insert a visible instance of the "true" time signature in the first measure(s) after the next system break? Or is there an easy work around?

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #15 – 2008-04-12 10:53 pm

Quote from: Cyril Alberga – 2008-04-12 09:57 pm

isn't it true that the use of an invisible time signature causes the following systems to lack any time signature?

They are no different from visible time signatures in this regard.

The convention for Time Signatures is that they are only displayed at the beginning of each movement and when they change.

This is a problem for Clefs and Key Signatures as the convention is that they should appear on the left the whole way down the page.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #16 – 2008-04-12 11:23 pm

I compared rick's notation using the triplet to my notation above. I placed his on one staff
and mine on a second one under it. Mine was longer and I could not get them to sync up.

If I am not mistaken my expanded line is why rick warned me to look at warren's tip on
using hidden notes on co-comittant notes in a competing voice (staff). that would expand a second
staff to line up. In this case where an eight note is followed by 6 32nds (in the time of an eighth note.) Is greg's eighth note followed by 6 32s under a triplet beam really the same. I am inclined to believe that
Greg's triplet beam is correct as it speeds up the 32nds to fit in the time of an eight beat. Where as using
34/32 at the beginning of that bar forces the audit bar to cooperate, the six notes are not compressed in
1/8 beat duration but span the same time that 6 normal 32nds would (an eight and one-half of an eight beat). am I making sense?

Dimitri Tiomkin used 5-tup,6 tup and 7 tup in his deguello (from the alamo) These were trumpet
riffs. i got the score from the wonderful people at the USC film library. A wonderful resource.
Interestingly enough much of deguello was not played as he first wrote it for Rio Bravo and
as it is notated for the alamo. It underwent significant change for the final film version.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #17 – 2008-04-13 12:27 am

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #18 – 2008-04-15 01:51 pm

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2008-04-11 01:20 am

Warren's tip has nothing to do with playback. It does work for printing (only).

I guess I misinterpret what you mean by playback and am curious as how it could be done any better (except for native support in NWC). There are three pentuplets in Thais Meditation and I tried to make them look and playback as well as possible. There is a hidden tempo change of 125% during the pentuplets, in the played-hidden staves the concurrent notes are tied to increase their length by a quarter, and in the visible-muted staves there are hidden rests instead of tied notes.

If this could be improved, I'm all ears.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #19 – 2008-04-15 02:41 pm

Warren, if you go back to your original post (reply #1 in this thread), you'll see that you didn't mention a tempo change. I'm sure that's why David said your tip had nothing to do with playback. It's only after you enter the tempo change that the music becomes playback-friendly.

PB, one of the great joys of working with NWC to many of us is the myriad options it gives us to, as you put it, "fool the program." Much of the power of the program lies in our ability to do just that, and I think it's been designed that way. It's almost like being able to hand-engrave the music. The great master among us at doing this is Rick G. You might want to check out some of the hymn transcriptions he's posted in the newsgroup.

That being said, I would certainly appreciate native tuplets beyond the standard triplet. A duplet would be particularly nice....

Cheers,

Bill

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #20 – 2008-04-15 10:32 pm

My apologies if I seemed a little testy. I had read the original post to imply tsoilihoi already knew about the required tempo change and just wanted the Audit Bar Lines tool to work. At any rate I have made some minor changes in my usertip and plan to do some more soon so I can take out the first reply.

Once again, my apologies.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #21 – 2008-04-16 06:46 am

Warren, there's nothing to apologize for. And Bill explained what I wrote better than I could, so I'm grateful to him, too.

Re: notating tuplets so that the audit bar lines feature can be used.

Reply #22 – 2008-04-17 11:36 pm

I just modified the user tip listed in the first response.