Cue notes?

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Cue notes?

2008-01-27 04:40 am

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #1 – 2008-01-27 01:53 pm

Good work. My attempt cuedemo.nwc in Printing Parts For Ensemble Members barely got off the ground, but a combination of "grace" notes plus text with a user font of NWC2STDA for notes too long to be graced might be something to look into.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #2 – 2008-01-27 05:55 pm

To quote an ancient topic:

Quote from: Rick G. – 2007-01-18 12:40 am

This clip was produced in Notepad:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First,Muted|Dur2:8th|Pos2:1,3
|Chord|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End,Muted|Dur2:8th|Pos2:1,3
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First,Muted|Dur2:8th,Grace|Pos2:1,3
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End,Muted|Dur2:8th,Grace|Pos2:1,3
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,Muted|Dur2:8th,Grace|Pos2:-6
|Chord|Dur:16th|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,Muted|Dur2:8th,Grace|Pos2:-6
|Chord|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,Muted|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-6
|Chord|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,Muted|Dur2:8th|Pos2:-6
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

It may indicate some weakness in the parsing or spacing routines.

However this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:1,3|Opts:Stem=Up,Muted|Dur2:Whole,Grace|Pos2:-6
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Could be quite useful in notating organ pedal note as in the attachment.
Variations on it might produce some real cue notes (a much wished-for item).

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #3 – 2008-01-27 06:11 pm

The note heads are:

i=whole note
j=half note
k=quarter, eighth, etc. (anything black)

The stems are drawn dynamically. I haven't found the flags, but they shouldn't be too difficult to locate. One should be able to assemble cue notes in this manner, using layered staves. Worth a try....as a fill-in until we get real cue notes.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #4 – 2008-01-27 07:51 pm

First, let me apologize - I didn't mean to claim credit for the ideas others have already introduced.

When I first came up with this yesterday, I was thinking it would be possible to have a secondary staff metrics choice, which would allow us to use ordinary notation but highlight certain notes and rests, and select a different size for just those.

Then I went to the user fonts instead, because I figure the double staff metrics idea would be a challenge to align. I also notice the font size for the text I used as cues seems to require larger values than the NWC2STDA default 16.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #5 – 2008-01-27 11:35 pm

Enter a normal rest. Optionally, set its Vertical Offset.

Now imagine that you could set the Grace Note attribute and use Ctrl+Enter to make a RestChord. Now futher imagine that since Grace Notes have no real duration, NWC2 would let you use any duration for the Grace Note and use the duration of the rest as the duration of the object. Finally, imagine that RestChords can be beamed ...

NWC2 would now support cues, cadenzas and (with a layer) descants.

Nah, too easy. It would never work

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #6 – 2008-01-28 03:52 am

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #7 – 2008-01-28 04:43 am

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2008-01-28 03:52 am

The playback sucks, but the appearance seems ok.

The rests are misplaced. Too much space between the final 8^th and the quarter.
I like this better. Set User1 to NWC2STDA:21pt for a 16pt staff:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Text|Text:"m"|Font:User1|Pos:2|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th,Grace|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"n"|Font:User1|Pos:0|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:2
|Text|Text:" "|Font:User1|Pos:6|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Rest|Dur:Half,Dotted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:2
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Top (yours) to bottom (mine) comparison attached.
I can always use grace notes for cue notes when only 1 staff is displayed, but they don't align properly when I have notes on other staves. No solution for that, I just have to a different notation program

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #8 – 2008-01-28 11:21 am

This is something I put together to display the NWC2STDA font, it's a small javascript page:

NWC2STDA.htm

It displays the number of a character, the character itself, and then the character from the NWC2STDA font.

1/30/08 Reworked the cue demo with grace notes instead of text. I could enter a dotted half note with no problem, but noticed I had to change stem direction "by hand" when necessary.

David, there is no need to apologize. Most of what I have done throughout life is to try to use or perhaps build on what others have done. If this helps you or anyone else to improve the usefulness of NoteWorthy, everyone benefits.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #9 – 2008-01-31 07:20 pm

With the introduction of headless notes and adjustable stem length, I would assume that all that is necessary is to shorten the stem length, and remove the noteheads and add smaller heads as text. This keeps everything properly aligned and maintains proper beaming. Or am I missing something?
[I have not been able to upgrade to v.2 since the HD crash (so I can't check it myself) and all of the events which have followed it... life is just so hectic right now that I can't even visit The Forum more than once per week anymore...]

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #10 – 2008-02-01 04:51 am

Quote from: K.A.T. – 2008-01-31 07:20 pm

With the introduction of headless notes and adjustable stem length, I would assume that all that is necessary is to shorten the stem length, and remove the noteheads and add smaller heads as text. This keeps everything properly aligned and maintains proper beaming. Or am I missing something?

Smaller heads as text require a custom font. NWC2STDA.ttf doesn't scale very well. The beams are too thick and the spacing too wide. Other than that, what you suggest works fine.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #11 – 2008-02-01 06:14 am

I, too, like your suggestion, K. A. T.

Quote

Or am I missing something?

No, I don't think so. Sometimes the cue notes would perhaps be something like the last 9 beats of someone's solo leading into your own part which begins on the fourth beat of a bar. Normally you would show your ordinary whole, half and quarter rests, usually moved lower on the staff to get out of the way, and just write the cues above them. Your way would likely work best on a layered staff.

Mm, sometimes it's hard to get the right vertical position for a text based notehead. I saw that the other day. That's probably the only drawback it to doing it your way.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #12 – 2008-02-01 06:58 am

Here is a comparison of the two methods. The leger lines are bit large on the second method.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #13 – 2008-02-01 01:27 pm

Quote

Smaller heads as text require a custom font.

Quote

Mm, sometimes it's hard to get the right vertical position for a text based notehead.

I have a font suite which I was developing, but when Lawrie released his, I just quit working on mine. Mine does have the smaller scaled (cue size) heads, which are in "perfect" vertical alignment.

Quote

The leger lines are bit large on the second method.

I also have smaller scaled leger lines (check No Leger Lines for the notes in question.).

Quote

Normally you would show your ordinary whole, half and quarter rests, usually moved lower on the staff to get out of the way, and just write the cues above them. Your way would likely work best on a layered staff.

I insert the rests as text, and avoid layering (I really can't stand the "left bar line" that results when layering. It's not a problem in a score, or a piano part, but in a single-line part - GRRRR!).

Quote

The beams are too thick...

how could I not notice that!

Quote

...and the spacing too wide.

If some of the notes are made invisible (say, the middle two of a group of four sixteenths), they will not take up space.

BUT WOULDN’T IT BE GREAT NOT TO HAVE TO DO ANY OF THIS?

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #14 – 2008-02-01 08:17 pm

When Rick came up with the idea of using grace notes in restchords, I stopped looking for alternative workarounds. Works great and is easy to do. But I still think the best approach would be to allow different staff metrics on different staves. Ideally, this would optionally allow the metrics adjustment to modify the entire staff (for ossia, solo parts above an accompaniment, etc.) or just the note size (for cue notes, descants, etc. - anything that needs to be layered with the main staff).

Wishful thinking.....

Bill

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #15 – 2008-02-02 02:13 am

I win! You guys have presented good ideas that I will be able to use next time I need/want to write cues. Many thanks, all.

And yes, it would be nice to not need the workarounds... but the great thing about NWC is - there is almost always a workaround. And it's not bloatware!!!

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #16 – 2008-02-02 02:30 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2008-02-01 08:17 pm

When Rick came up with the idea of using grace notes in restchords, I stopped looking for alternative workarounds. Works great and is easy to do.

Perhaps you can show us some examples. I cannot create a RestChord where only one member is graced. I can create a split chord this way, but not a Restchord.

However:

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online – 2007-01-18 02:02 am

Combining grace and non-grace notes in a split chord is not supported. The bug here is that the clip text interpreter doesn't catch it. This will be corrected.

As of Beta 2.23 it hasn't been "corrected", but since it causes no harm and is occasionally useful, I'm in no rush.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #17 – 2008-02-02 04:53 am

Well, gee, Rick, I thought I had done it this afternoon....following your instructions.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #18 – 2008-02-02 07:25 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2008-02-02 04:53 am

Well, gee, Rick, I thought I had done it this afternoon....following your instructions.

If you were referrring to this:

Quote from: Rick G. – 2008-01-27 11:35 pm

Now imagine that you could set the Grace Note attribute and use Ctrl+Enter to make a RestChord.

Perhaps you imagined that you had done it ...

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #19 – 2008-02-02 09:18 am

Quote from: K.A.T. – 2008-02-01 01:27 pm

(I really can't stand the "left bar line" that results when layering. It's not a problem in a score, or a piano part, but in a single-line part - GRRRR!).

You might look at my attachent to <this>. IMO, it is a fairly stable way to digitally 'white out' the left bar lines. It does require that SysBreaks be explicitly set. I'm with you, some of these things should happen automatically.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #20 – 2008-02-02 11:48 am

I've been following this thread with some interest...

It occurs to me that there already exists code in NWC2 for scaling notes, stems, flags and beams etc. in order to create grace notes. Surely this code can be used to create cue notes as well...

Sure, it means another modification to the NWC2 file definition but I really don't see this as a big deal...

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #21 – 2008-02-02 05:34 pm

Quote from: Rick G.

Perhaps you imagined that you had done it ...

I think I must have. And I must have imagined seeing it on the screen, too, because I've been trying to reconstruct what I did yesterday and I can't do it. Not imaginative enough, perhaps. ;-)

But Lawrie's right. The existence of grace notes means that the program can already display and print notes in two different metrics in the same system - even on the same staff - already. What is missing is the ability to line grace notes up with the beat. At this point, they can only be used between beats. That is, of course, part of the definition of grace notes. But it seems a small thing to optionally relax it so that the same small notes can be put to other uses.

You can come very close, now, using a combination of grace notes and invisible rests. Paste the following two clips onto separate staves and then look at them in print preview:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Half,Grace|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:4th,Dotted|Visibility:Never
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:1
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

A little further work would undoubtedly get them even closer....but never perfect, as layering them will show. However, if we had the ability to position these notes horizontally independent of the beat, we would have a workable kludge. Which, as Kevin has stated, is no match for being able to do it right in the first place. Imagine that.....

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #22 – 2008-02-03 04:56 pm

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2008-02-02 05:34 pm

You can come very close, now, using a combination of grace notes and invisible rests. Paste the following two clips onto separate staves and then look at them in print preview:

And then put a SysBreak on the barline and see how very far away this is from being workable.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #23 – 2008-02-03 05:35 pm

It would indeed be helpful if cue/grace notes had the option of taking time or NOT taking time (as it is now). It wouldn't be necessary to follow a "cue" with a hidden rest of the same length.

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #24 – 2008-02-04 02:42 am

Quote from: Rick G. – 2008-02-02 09:18 am

You might look at my attachent to <this>...

Alas, it is a v.2, so I cannot yet open it (O, when be there time enough to have a rest or play with stuff?).

Re: Cue notes?

Reply #25 – 2008-02-04 05:58 am

Quote from: Rick G.

And then put a SysBreak on the barline and see how very far away this is from being workable.

I know, I know....<sigh>.....