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Partial Layering

Hello,

My score has large parts where two voices (staffs) run the same melody. Proffesional notation usually layers the two (and names the staff accordingly) in printing, but only in these areas. So, How do I make a partial layering of a staff? (and also, how do I make the proper headlines in the printing?)

thanks,
Bananov.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #1 –
Hello Bananov,
Your querie has tickled my "why not" brain cells so this is the route I would
 take if I were to do partial layering on NWC 1.75.
1. Insert an extra stall under staff properties.

2.Select , copy and paste the second stave into the new third stave.

3.Delete and insert rests into the bars not to be layered.

4.Edit the note stems in all staves according to taste.

5.Layer staves 1and 2 ,the 3rd stave should now serve as the unlayered staff.

6.Inserting titles and other main texts is done when opening a project and can be seen
   on the print preview prior to finale printing ,the title dose not show when you are        
   working on the piece .You can add your own text eg what instrument or voice while
   working by pressing the X key which gives affords an array of text options .

7.You can even modify these text options under "page set-up " command where
    you will find fonts section which gives you a wide selection of different text
    and musical marks which you might want to use to embellish your parts.
I will submit an example of my interpretation of Partial Stave Layering to NWC
Scriptorium Section if you want to hear and see what I mean, if it is acceptable to
them.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #2 –
I think Bananov is asking how to write a score that sometimes has two visible staffs and sometimes just one.

Your method, Timoteus, almost solves the problem, except you can't hide the lines of the third staff.  You might be able to cover them with electronic whiteout, but that's a workaround and I've never tried, so I don't know if it could be done.  The program itself doesn't do what I think Bananov asked for.

Sometimes band parts are printed for two instruments, particularly where they play in unison for most of the piece and just have a few notes where they are in harmony.

In such a case, I would use two staffs, and write the two parts each on its own.  I would set the stem directions to UP on all the notes on the top staff, with all the notes on the lower staff set to stems down. 

Where the notes are unison, adjust the lower staff notes so they have the same direction as the top staff in that section.  When layered, they will overlay.  Then insert text "a2" ("a duo" = both players are to play the following notes) at the beginning of those passages.


Re: Partial Layering

Reply #3 –
Hi David,
If one looks at the problem in it's most basic form as I would  interpret it;what Bananove
means by layering and partial layering ,I must add that ,without definite guidelines as to
what 2 voices or instrument voicings he is refering to, I could only draw the inference that he wantes two voices together in one stave but then seperated in others.My method I feel shows him how to do it ,ie one should not be misled by only layering 2
staves , use a copy of the 2nd voice as the 3rd stave and then simply delete the sections you dont want to layer.
The rests now form part of a second staff reading quite naturally with the upper layered
staff.I have sent an attachment of a practical example of what I mean to Scriptorium using nylon guitar and accoustic bass.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #4 –
Hi Timoteus,

I'd like to see the file to get an understanding of what it is you've described.  I'm not sure how to find it on the Scriptorium.  Would you consider adding it here as an attachment to your reply, please?

Also, we're sort of between a rock and a hard place until we know for sure what Bananove was describing.  Perhaps he could scan an image of a score showing what he meant to work with.  That can be saved as a .gif file and attached to a reply on this forum too.

Regards,
David

 

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #5 –
Hello David,
I must come clean and confess that I don't know how to attache a NWC file to this forum my service provider dose not work with the internet facility provided here.Believe
me I wish I could or knew a way to do so.It would make life that much easier and
comprehendable .I am therefore at the mercy of someone who could tell me how
to this.Until such time I will have to take the route that I know in order to get the job
done with the facilities provided by Scriptorium; as the saying gose "ze are vays und
means"

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #6 –
Press reply to open a message window.  Then look just below it to the left, and click the Additional Options.  One of those is Attach,  Then you simply click the browse, and go looking for your file on your hard drive.  If you want to add another one, click "(more attachments)" beside Browse.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #7 –
Us NWC2ers tend to forget that the "Members" can't attach.
You need to get NWC2 before you can attach files.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #9 –
Look, for example at this: http://acappella.colormaria.com/1517-WM/1517-WM^sample_from_this_arrangement.pdf

Sometimes no soprane parts appear (as they sing nothing), and they are not printed at all. I couldn't find an example of unifying staves for period of times, but I think this exemplifies the point.

Bananov.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #10 –
I've seen staves been temporarily hidden, particularly in orchestral scores.  I've only seen this in professional engravings, as typically non-professional engravings (such as someone printing their score straight from Finale) have all staves on every page.  I have my copy of The Planets in front of me, and on the first page it shows every staff, but on some pages farther in, not all staves are shown, so I understand what Bananov is asking.  However, it is probably very difficult to implement.  (Not even Finale has it!)  I've never seen two staves being temporarily layered, though.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #11 –
Thats why I enjoy concocting little things on what I like to refer to as "Ol Noteworthy"
she is only limited by the extend of one's imagination.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #12 –
Hello !

This kind of score is used for choirs. In a first part, a soloist is singing and then the choir answers, then, only female voices are singing, and so on...
In my opinion, this could be something like sections in a word processor. Every section has its proper configuration. Is it possible ?

--
AirW
France
Linux/Wine/NWC
 

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #13 –
Looking at this  from another angle, I have wanted on several occasions to use an additional staff for layering some otherwise difficult-to-notate sections of a piece, without having to produce a full length additional staff which I then have to fill with rests. Or to add an additional Solo line for a small part of a longer SATB piece.

Tony

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #14 –
Quote
this could be something like sections in a word processor. Every section has its proper configuration. Is it possible ?

I think this can be done by breaking the piece into different song files.  You wouldn't be able to change the number of staffs in each system on a particular page, but you could have each page with a varying number of staffs.  So use file 1 for the pages that have three staffs per system, and file 2 for the pages that need 4, then file 3 for the next pages that need only 3 again, and so on.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #15 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I think this can be done by breaking the piece into different song files.  You wouldn't be able to change the number of staffs in each system on a particular page, but you could have each page with a varying number of staffs.  So use file 1 for the pages that have three staffs per system, and file 2 for the pages that need 4, then file 3 for the next pages that need only 3 again, and so on.



I'd like to resurrect this topic, but more from the point of view of partial staffs instead of partial layering (maybe it is really the same thing?).  The Waltzing Matilda .pdf example best shows what I'm looking for.

In multi-voice vocal music, this is very common and would be a very useful feature.
- Someone already mentioned solos.  A piece in four-part harmony, with one small section for a soloist, must 5 staffs throughout without this feature, where one is empty most of the time.  (Waltzing Matilda example shows how the Soprano staff need not be there for much of the piece.)
- A more complicated piece, with 6 or more voices, often has small sections where there are additional splits.  This can sometimes be done by simply adding the splits to existing staffs.  However, if the so-called split is really a completely different part that comes and goes, such as a descant or a harmony with different rhythms, then it clutters the music to add it to an existing staff.

Is there anything in NWC2 to make this work, short of having multiple files?  Any chance this would ever get high on the list?

Someone commented that this must be hard because Finale doesn't have it.  I don't think it would be that hard to implement, but then I don't know how the page layout is calculated now.

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #16 –
LilyPond defines it as:
Quote from: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.12/Documentation/user/music-glossary/Frenched-score#Frenched-score
1.132 Frenched score
ES: partitura a la francesa, I: ?, F: ?, D: ?, NL: ?, DK: ?, S: ?, FI: partituuri francesan tapaan.

A ‘condensed’ score, produced by omitting staves for instruments that are not playing at the moment, and by moving up additional systems from following pages to take up the space thus liberated, which reduces the total number of pages used to print the work.
A Google search of "Frenched score" yields only references to LilyPond, so it seems that they have invented this phrase.

IMO, this would be difficult to implement.

It would be useful to be able to "print" each system to its own graphic file for post-processing and recombining.

The Win 3.1 version had an option to save a page as a *.bmp file. The problem with saving *.emf files is that most programs want to shrink them. I have some User Tool workarounds for this but they are not pretty.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #17 –
I don't know how hard it would be to program, but the answer seems to be to have sections like you can do in MS Word.  Each section then could have its unique set up.  So for instance, section 1 would have 4 staffs, section 2 just one, section 3 four again. 

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #18 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I don't know how hard it would be to program, but the answer seems to be to have sections like you can do in MS Word.  Each section then could have its unique set up.  So for instance, section 1 would have 4 staffs, section 2 just one, section 3 four again. 


But can I do these sections currently within a single file?  Do I have to have multiple files?

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #19 –
There was an earlier thread that touched on this to some extent: priorities.
Since 1998

Re: Partial Layering

Reply #20 –
Quote
But can I do these sections currently within a single file?  Do I have to have multiple files?

No and yes, in that order,,, but follow the thread Warren gives.  I think someone suggests digital whiteout but I've never really worried about it because it's not a feature I need.