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Topic: Note Spacing (Read 11112 times) previous topic - next topic

Note Spacing

I'm not the musician - my wife is. I take care of the computer stuff.
At present we're both lost. We have a piece of music that we're trying to modify. Each time we add a couple of notes into a measure the distance between the two notes is so great that the entire measure is moved over. Other measures down the piece show notes much closer together.

Stupid question. What controls the spacing between two notes?

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #1 –
Well, one factor is if it's a chord with notes adjacent to eachother, the spacing will be wider, of course. For some strange reason, unbarred notes with stems upwards suffer a similar fate. Extra note spacing in the note properties makes it even wider. However, I can't think of anythink that will make the spacing narrower. Pardon me if I'm wrong; I'm not an expert.
Supported by The Brotherhood of Pandas

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Techgy –
Stupid question. What controls the spacing between two notes?

Hardly stupid, this is one of the most complex of all NoteWorthy questions.
At best, I can partially answer a somewhat different question:

  What causes extra note spacing?

The big things are:
  • Forced system breaks on barlines.
  • Mismatched or missing barlines.
  • Checking: Increase spacing for longer notes in Page Setup ...->Options
  • Anything with Preserve Width checked. Text, MPC's, Pedal marks, etc

Smaller things:
  • Accidentals
  • Chords with an interval of a second
  • Dotted notes
  • Unbeamed notes with stem up (upflags)
  • Uneven Rythyms e.g. 3 against 2, ragtime
  • Lyrics, especially before and after a bar

In NWC2, checking:
  • Extra Accidental Spacing
  • Extra Note Spacing

Upflags with seconds are cumulative. See:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5778.0

There is also this problem:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5598.msg36324#msg36324
Registered user since 1996

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #3 –
We've checked most of what you suggest, but we're still not finding a problem in why the spacing is so erratic.
Is it possible to post a copy of the tune or a graphic on these forums?

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #4 –
G'day Techgy,
Quote from: Techgy –
We've checked most of what you suggest, but we're still not finding a problem in why the spacing is so erratic.
Is it possible to post a copy of the tune or a graphic on these forums?


I'm not sure what level of membership allows it, but it is possible to copy files to the forum.  However...

Could it be that you are simply adding notes to a bar on one staff which is pushing that bars' barline further out?  The notes will align with the notes on the other staves but the barlines will not line up as the total number of beats within the bar that has been modified now exceeds the time signatures' declaration.

This will also seem to put the note spacing out as the space for the barline is still allowed for because of the note alignment with other staves.

To fix:
  • Make sure the total number of beats in the bar add up to what the time signature declares, OR
  • Use |Tools|Audit Bar Lines| - but beware, the results may not be what you want.  In this case, <Ctrl-Z> (Undo) is your friend!

Other music notation software will often force bar content to add up to the time signature, NWC is more flexible than that (thankfully) but this flexibility requires that you, as the user, do a little more work.

Hopefully I'm on the right track...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #5 –
Lawrie,

The holidays have taken most of our time and we put this issue behind us for a while - until today. I have installed NWC2 and have briefly looked at it but we still have the same issue with the note spacing. To help us resolve this I'm going to post our piece to our family web site. If you click on the following URL you should be able to download the file. Once you have it downloaded please let me know through this forum and I'll remove the file.

http://home.mickelsen.org/abide.nwc

The issue here is extra spacing that is being placed between notes that causes the measures of the top staff vs the bottom staff to get our of sync. I'm not the musician, my wife is, so forgive me if I don't sound like I know what I'm doing :)

Techgy

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #6 –
Hi Techgy,

Had a quick look at your music file. Note Spacing is not your issue here, but rather understanding how you need to enter the notes to obey the timing rules.

For some of the "discrepancies" you have, the easiest resolution is to use layering.

I was having a go at correcting it all but without the original score that's a bit difficult because I can't see how each measure is supposed to be and where the DC al Segno  is for example.

If you would like to send me a scanned in copy of the music, I would be happy to enter it for you and send it back which will give you some pointers on how the "wrong spaces" can be avoided.

If you click on my name (above) it will take you to the profile and you will find the email address there.
Rich.

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #7 –
Happy new year, Techgy.

I think most of your problems are to do with entry errors, not program faults.  Here's how to fix them up (in my explanation I'm counting the first, partial bar, as bar 1) :

Part of the problem is the number of beats in the bars is different.  There's a pickup note in the top staff but not the bottom one.  Start by adding this to the second staff after the time signature:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End


Then, in this bar in the top staff:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th,Dotted|Pos2:4
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:4|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

there are too many beats - this is because the half note is not part of a chord.  Fix it by changing it to this:
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem,VertOffset=4|Dur2:Half|Pos2:-2o|Color:0|Visibility:Default

This adds a shorter duration chord element that can then be counted by the program.  If you don't like seeing the 8th rest, use a layered staff instead.  Remove the half note, and put it in a layered staff.  Pad the rest of the layered staff up to that note with hidden rests and hidden bar lines.

In the third bar, the program only "sees" 2 and a half beats, because only the smaller duration item is actually used in aligning notes on a score.  Again, putting the stem-down notes in a layered staff will fix this, or just add an invisible 8th rest before the first 8th note of that bar.

In the  fourth bar and sixth bars, you've again just not placed the right number of beats in the top staff.  This:
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

 should be either this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4
|Rest|Dur:16th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

or this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-4
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

In bar 13, you need to shorten the last 8th note in the top staff to a sixteenth, or undot the note before it.   Measure 14, you have the equivalent of a dotted 8th note extra time in the top staff.  Measure 15, you're stuck with the counting rule again, so just add a hidden 8th rest after the first chord in the top staff.

In bars 18 and 19, change the stem-down quarter notes to chords with stem-up 8th rests and stem-down quarter notes.

I haven't gone any further, because at this point things are very confusing in the lower staff starting in bar 17.  I think you had a dotted 8th note by mistake, and when you used automatic bar lines, you got the usual split notes tied across bar lines.   However, until you redo the bottom line from bar 17 to the end, I can't tell what you want to write so I'm sort of stuck.

In bar 22 in the lower staff, you use the segno sign again.  This should be the "d.s.al coda" flow direction instead.   You also need to insert a "to coda" command where you want the repeat to jump to the coda. 

A couple of cosmetic things that you might find useful:

      The flow direction commands must be entered on each staff.  If you set their visibility to "top staff only" they'll print properly, just on the top line.

      In bars 5, 22 and 23, I suggest moving the flow direction commands "segno," "d.s.al segno" and "coda" up above the staff. 

     Always try to follow the beat when beaming notes.  In 3/4 time, eighth notes should be grouped in pairs, instead of by fours.  

I hope you'll find these suggestions helpful. 












Re: Note Spacing

Reply #8 –
Sorry, Rich, I was writing while you posted.  I see we've identified the same problems. Two heads, eh?

Happy new year!

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #9 –
Happy new year David.

I was more lazy than you !  I got so far and thought that there's no point until I can see the score, for the reasons you have identified as well.


Two heads indeed - one of them a bit lazy  !!!
Rich.

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #10 –
Not so lazy as you might think Rich. I was about to reply with a number of the same errors. I saw that both you and David had replied already and knew that both of you would have explained it far better than I could. So figured I would spare my brain the unacstomed strain. <lol>
Illigitimi Non Carborundum

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #11 –
G'day Techgy,
Welcome back.  Hope you had a great Christmas and are looking forward to a great new year.

I notice the boys have already commented.  As has been mentioned, the real problem is more one of understanding how music is notated.  For bar lines to line up, the contents of each bar (measure) must add up to the same "time".

Your starting time signature is 3/4.  This means that each bar contains 3 beats that are each of crotchet (fourth or 1/4 note) duration.  This does not mean that every note must be a crotchet, simply that the total of the note (and rest) values must add up to 3 crotchets per bar.

So, you could have 3 crotchets (1/4 notes), 6 Quavers (1/8 notes), 12 semiquavers (1/16 notes) etc., and of course, you can have any combination so long as they add up to 3 crotchets.  E.G. 2 quavers, a crotchet and then 4 semiquavers (2*1/8, 1*1/4 and 4*1/16) - grand total = 3 quavers (1/4 notes) etc..  There is almost no limit on the possible combinations, especially when you start adding augmentation dots...  But that's another lesson ;)

In order for the barlines to line up (and thus prevent the waste space) each bar (measure) on each staff must be the same "length".

In your example, the top staff has 2 quavers as a pickup (anacrusis).  This is a short bar that is also known as a "lead in".  The second staff doesn't, instead it starts with a full bar with the last note being tied into the following bar.  This looks like you used the "automatic bar line" feature on the second staff 'cos the results are more "perfect" than the top staff.  I consider that tool a "trap for new players" as it can give some very unexpected results if you haven't been careful with your note values on entry.

I note that David has gone to quite some detail for you.  FYI, the sections of his post that look like this:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

are text representations that NWC2 can import as notation.  This example specifies that:
  • it is a NWC2 clip
  • a rest of crotchet (4th) duration is required
  • a bar line is next
  • and finally the clip is finished

Simply highlight the lines, <Ctrl-C> to copy 'em to the clipboard, go to NWC2, position your insertion point where the "clip" needs to go and press <Ctrl-V> and  voila, instant music bits.

NWC is more "free form" than other music editors.  This is one of its great strengths.  The downside is that a little more understanding on the part of the notater (you) is required.

So yes, there is lots to learn, but it is very rewarding.  I feel very confident you and your wife will be "up to speed" quite quickly.

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #12 –
This thread certainly demonstrates we are a worldwide community, doesn't it?

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #13 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
This thread certainly demonstrates we are a worldwide community, doesn't it?
Yes, but I hate when Lawrie gets "crochety". I'd rather deal with alto clefs than crochets.
I thought that "mismatched bar lines" was self-explanatory. My error.

Happy New Year to all.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #14 –
G'day Rick,
Quote from: Rick G. –
Yes, but I hate when Lawrie gets "crochety".  <snip>

I'm sorry mate, I'll try to behave myself better in future...

[move];)[/move]
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #15 –
I dunno, I'm starting to think it's more efficient to write "3 semiquavers" than "three 16th notes" or "3 sixteenth notes."

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #16 –
We also received this query via support e-mail. I have attached the short beginning clip of our guesswork changes that attempt to explain the issue of bar line alignment.

ps. I didn't see anything "crochety" in Lawrie's replies. It seems very helpful, really.

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #18 –
Quote
OK. I guess Lawrie was talking notational crotchets. I get it now (it's late).

After I read your first post but before the second (reading posts in order) I thought  "Does he really mean that ?  Is he adding to the joke? if so HOW?  Has he missed the joke ? "  Then I thought "American - Bet he's forgotten the other notation nomenclature".  Sure enough.
LOL
Get some sleep :)

Rich.

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #19 –
"Crochety" - does that mean "in the mood for crocheting?"  Or am I embroidering the truth in this thread? 

(Sorry, it is late, and I can't resist.)



 

Re: Note Spacing

Reply #20 –
Triple groan!
 
Rich.