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Topic: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning (Read 55837 times) previous topic - next topic

Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

I've noticed that when I try to copy a song either to clipboard or in an EMF format, it does not paste correctly into MS Word 2000 or Wordperfect 2002.  What are supposed to be solid lines are several thin lines, and the slurs & ties are rather jagged looking curves.  However, I can paste into Adobe Illustrator, and it parses the EMF format just fine.  NWC v1 works perfectly with MS Word & Wordperfect, but it uses the WMF format instead of EMF.  It would be great to be able to select from a list of export formats and to be able to export to other graphics formats such as EPS.

I really like the adjustable stem lengths, once I figured out that the lengths were absolute rather than relative to 0 as default length.  It would be nice to be able to inividually adjust the length of stems on say, a cord with two notes at the same pitch with opposite stem directions.  In this case, only one stem would need shortening to avoid clipping lyrics.

One last item is that I like how slurs are closer to the notes, especially the ones opposite the stem tips or stem direction.  However, slurs on the same side as the stem tips could be positioned closer to the notes themselves, like the ties are.  Or, it would be nice to control the vertical placement with an override.

Thanks for your good work,

David

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #1 –
NWC2 uses graphics features that require the EMF format. Some applications incorrectly parse the EMF format, and thus munge the paste/insert result for the EMF graphic. In fact, it appears as though many of the problems are from applications that convert the NWC2 EMF graphic into a WMF graphic before using/displaying it.

You might try looking for converters that operate correctly on EMF graphics. There might be something that converts EMF into other graphics types (although converting to WMF will always yield something less effective than the original EMF).

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #2 –
Indeed, the various graphics formats are not always parsed correctly, depending on application. This is not a new effect.

For example: create placeable WMF from NWC1, placeable EMF from NWC2. Be sure not to exceed 600dpi printer resolution (because too much resolution may crash the next step).

Then, open the WMF or EMF into the Irfan View graphics program. This will rasterize the vector WMF or EMF, so that you can save as a bitmap image. Notice that the EMF is parsed accurately at full dpi resolution, but the WMF is not.

I don't know about the word processing application you are using, but let me try a wild guess: Maybe it is snapping vector control points to a grid? Can that feature be turned off? Just a guess!

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #3 –
My problem is, in a couple of applications, the ties and slurs don't come through, though everything else does.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #4 –
Yes, those are two of the elements that necessitated the change to EMF.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #5 –
So, now what?

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #6 –
...and they did in NWC1.75

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #7 –
There is nothing we can do to fix problems in other applications.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #8 –
I fully understand that Noteworthy cannot do anything about the functionality of other applications.  My point is that I could copy and paste, with all the ties and slurs, to the various applications I was used to using from NWC1.75, but can't now. That is what leads me to believe that NWC might have something to do with all of this.  After all, other people have pointed out other difficulties since the coming of NWC 2 and emf's.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #9 –
This is one of the many reasons that we are moving to version 2. This new version exports graphics in EMF format. Version 1 exports graphics in WMF format. Some applications may not correctly import EMF graphics. There is nothing we can do inside of NWC2 to fix graphic applications that do not handle EMF graphics correctly. If your graphic editing software does not handle EMF correctly, but handles WMF correctly, you can always use version 1 in the same manner as you use it today.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #10 –
I looked around the web a bit. I'm not a programmer, so my info is less reliable than anything Noteworthy might say.

WMF and EMF are Windows-specific vector file formats. Apparently, these formats do not store certain kinds of information within the file, because it is expected that the file will be used on the same computer that created it, without intervening changes to the system. Thus, if the WMF or EMF is used on a different computer - even one that you think should be the same - or if you make any intervening change such as adding or removing a font to your own system, then the WMF or EMF may have a problem.

With PostScript printers (including conversion to PDF), a problem can arise if the print driver resolution is too low. The printer driver does some sort of scaling, which may introduce errors at the periphery of the image in some cases. The solution is to use a higher DPI, if you can. But caution: If you intend to rasterize the WMF or EMF, excessive DPI may require too much memory, and your system may crash.

None of the above is specifically related to NWC1 or NWC2.

One web site, written in early 2003, stated that support for EMF in some applications was erratic. It did not clarify which applications.

If you can't get EMF to work for you any other way, then rasterize the EMF using the free Irfan View, with your printer driver set to 600 DPI. You can then save the rasterized image as TIFF, GIF, or whatever. Be sure to use compression, or the file size will be very large. With 600 DPI, the rasterized image has enough resolution that it will still look good if pasted into a document and scaled.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #11 –
If your ultimate printout involves PostScript (either a PostScript-compatible printer, or PDF), then you might try this:

http://graphicssoft.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projectory.de%2Femftoeps%2Findex.html

It claims to convert EMF to EPS, which could then be inserted (as EPS) into documents that accept this format. Not all applications can do it.

Alas, not being at my own computer, I cannot try it myself. But the download looks legitimate, and is free.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #12 –
I have just made a discovery.  In MS Word 2000, if you PASTE the page into it, it will look all funny as if it is in outline.  HOWEVER, if you save the page to file first, then insert as a picture, all is kopacetic.  In the Open Office document, you get the same result no matter what you do, but in that application, you get no slurs or ties. I will see how things work in MS Publisher.

The emf to eps converter works well, by the way.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #13 –
I was able to get slurs and ties in Open Office. Do you have the latest version of OO ? One of the earlier versions had some problems handling graphics or symbolic fonts.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #14 –
it's copacetic

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #15 –
If anyone has any doubts about the EMF files created by NWC2, you can use our free viewer to see an exact rendering of the EMF graphics created by NWC2.

NoteWorthy Software's Enhanced Metafile Viewer [196 KB]

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #16 –
Just got the most recent OO. (1.1.2)  I'll try again.

And, quite right: it is copacetic.

Also, I would like to hear what people have to say on my invisible notes post.  It's perplexing.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #17 –
I can get Open Office 1.12 to read EMF files, and can even modify them, but how do you get it to save them as EMF?

The EMF files place directly into Pagemaker 6.5 where I am setting up my books. They print very fast and I can go straight from NWC to PM.

One work around is to print from Open Office to PDF or postscript but that is another stage and I am trying to avoid printing from graphic pages to speed up printing.

PDF or postscript files can be converted to graphical files through the free Ghostscript program.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #18 –
Well, I had some chant music that I did using 1.75b and it was very tedious as I needed stemless notes.  I upgraded to version 2 for stemless notes and re-did my music. Love the stemless option.

Now my copy to OpenOffice 1.1.3 does not show the slurs as mentioned.  Robert A. says he was able to get slurs in his Open Office.

Has anyone else had luck?

Tom

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #19 –
I'm not attempting to put down OO, but I find it's so very easy to use PDFCreator, freeware available from http://sourceforge.net/projects/pdfcreator/

I've "printed" almost all my big band parts created in NWC to PDF.

The biggest single part is a 271 bar busy piano score, 12 pages long.  In PDF format, it's only 1.2 megabytes.  Most typical reed and brass section parts seem to range between 100 & 700 KB.  I don't know how this compares to files created with OO and EMF images.

With PDF's,you have the advantage of getting everything that would have been printed.  No worries about slurs or other things not appearing.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #20 –
OO will import an EMF. However, the information is converted into OO's own drawing format, and cannot be saved or exported as EMF (unless OO adds that as a future enhancement).

I have had inconsistent results editing EMF (or WMFs) with OO. Part of the reason, I believe, is that the editing of such graphics is not really the "main thing" for the program. Same with MS Word.

As for PDF, if you cant to do it directly from NWC, than (as was mentioned) PDFcreator from SourceForge is the way to go. If you do use OO, the program has a built-in PDF mechanism. Be sure you use a recent version.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #21 –
I agree that it would be a useful feature to be able to adjust the height of the slur if desired, but I do love having them hug the notes better, and like being able to reposition them to either above or below the notes.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #22 –
OO will import an EMF. However, the information is converted into OO's own drawing format, and cannot be saved or exported as EMF [unless OO adds that as a future enhancement].

Sure it can (Select All, File, Export, File Format: EMF)!
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #23 –
F.B.: Is the EMF export from OO a vector drawing object, or is it a bitmap? (I'm not at my own computer, so I can't tell.) If it is a bitmap, then there's no reason to use it that way.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #25 –
Oh its vector alright!
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #26 –
F.B.: Thanks, I didn't realize OO could export EMF vector (must have been an enhancement that I didn't notice). Is the EMF like the original? For example, if grand staff piano EMF is imported to OO, the exported as EMF, does the curly staff brace look OK?
 

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #27 –
As I said earlier in this topic, I am able to get the emf into OO (1.1.2) but without ties and slurs.  I save the emf and then insert from file.  What am I doing wrong that the rest of you are doing right?

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #28 –
A few notes about tests and trials with EMF. I use EMF directly for most of my work and would find a reliable editor very handy.
----------
Export from OO1.12 is not reliable.
I have found it is a good editor and can change slur shapes etc. but the export is not read the same by other programs. There seem to be conversion problems and possibly artifacts which makes subequent use of the export file inpossible or useless.

The only reliable way way I have found is to export it as a PDF from OO112 or then convert that to a graphics image in Ghostscript. Taking it to a bmp always works and the bmp can be converted to tif.

The proprietary program VeryPdf gives an excellent PDF2EMF conversion from the output of OO112 and can be read by Pagemaker6.5 but when printed back from Pagemaker as a PDF  the noteheads are all distorted. It can be printed directly from Pagemaker OK.

Pagemaker can read the PDF from OO112 but is limited to printing it in 300dpi as it will not convert back to postscript correctly.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #29 –
Kevin,

Good advice, and thanks, but my concern is getting the emf into an OO 1.1.2 Text Document.  I can do that, but, as I said, the slurs and ties don't come along.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #30 –
Robin, this is most curious.
I had the import into OO112 working with slurs.
I opened a text file and imported as a graphic. However it no longer does! with a newly created file from NWC.

Have the recent NWC version changes done something?

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #31 –
Kevin,

That's the point, exactly! The new EMF's do not behave as the old WMF's did.  This is disconcerting as one needs the new NWC2 to have the new features, but the ties and slurs don't work.  If you use MSword, they do, but only if you save them to file (rather than use the clipboard feature) first.  And, if you use MS publisher, (or word with the clipboard) the whole thing looks as if you've printed a font in outline.

I brought a lot of this up earlier in this topic.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #32 –
NWC2 exports as *.emf, not the older *.wmf format.

We created the Enhanced Metafile Viewer so you can see for yourself what is contained within the EMF, since some graphics software misinterpret some parts of the NWC2 EMF.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #33 –
...and I have the viewer.  But, that doesn't help with the problem.  I know the emf file is fine in the viewer, and is as it appears in Print Preview. I am just a bit amazed that it is always the slurs and ties that do not appear in some applications when everything else does.  In other applications, as I said, everything BUT the slurs and ties appear in something like outline form. Can send you files, if you'd like.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #34 –
It's not really all that surprising that various graphic programs have trouble with these. The technology of displaying the new slurs, ties, and grand staff brace in NWC2 are the reasons that we had to switch to EMF. I would suspect that some graphic interpreters of EMF data tend to use schemes originally written for WMF data.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #35 –
Any suggestions?

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #36 –
Do you have a "drawing" program, such as Adobe Illustrator? Try it.

If you didn't need to edit anything (other than crop and size), you can open the EMF in Irfan View, which will convert it to a non-vector bitmap at the printer DPI specified when you created the EMF. Be warning: If your printer DPI exceeded 600, Irfan View may choke on the large amount of calculation. Incidentally, when the bitmap is finished, it may look all white. Scroll it to see your music.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #37 –
The problem is that what WAS working is NOT NOW working.
O.O. 1.1.2 did read the EMF correctly with all the slurs and it could be edited. Now they dont appear although the NWC viewer shows them.

I have tried old versions of the file and the same results.
Also I have deleted and re-installed O.O.1.1.2 and it is still the same.
My conclusion is that some other software changes have interfered.

For the meantime if I want to edit the file I will do it graphically.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #38 –
The reason I need to get pages into something like a word processing program or a publishing program (btw: anyone know of a good desktop pub. program, preferably open-source?) is to do things to scores that Noteworthy can't.  Specifically, an extended 8va......... (the NWC text feature is not adequate: I've tried several things) and, since I do my work under Creative Commons licences, I need more room for the CC licence info than the copyright fields allow. I accomplish both with text boxes.  The only place the new emf's work properly is in MSWord., but MS Publisher and OO are much preferable, handling placement better.

Of course, if we had a larger copyright field (which I've suggested) or some means to do 8va's (I've suggested this, too), I wouldn't need to use the emf's at all, which would end the trouble.  And, Kevin's right.  I made the same point before: why does something not work that did?

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #39 –
..."what was working is not now working"

Ah, that explains why I didn't understand the problem. My own usage of OO is out of date, as I am not at my own computer.

Perhaps the problem is not part of OO or NWC2, but of the underlying Windows system? Could it be that the EMF draws upon system resources for interpretation, and that somehow those resources changed due to a Windows security update? Just guessing!

But it is not an unreasonable guess. Ever since the early days of browsers, the "XBM" image format was recognized. Virtually nobody uses it anymore. The interesting part of an XBM image is that both IE and Netscape-type browsers allowed the image do be written as code directly within the HTML source file, rather than called as an outside file via an <image> tag. However, XP-SP2 added security features that nullified IE's ability to interpret an XBM.

Who noticed? Well, a popular bank in China was using XBM images for online banking. Customers who installed XP-SP2 couldn't do some online banking services anymore. Whoops. There was A LOT of Chinese Internet activity about it! (And some in English, of course.)

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #40 –
My brief excursion into the OO code a while back clearly showed that WMF/EMF data is enumerated by OO. Any problems it has in displaying EMF data is likely to originate in that enumeration process.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #41 –
Fixed OO112 import.

I restored the PC to an earlier state and removed any trace of OpenOffice. OOo1.0.0. read the slurs straight off but the noteheads were replaced by flowers! (a most interesting affect.)

Cleaning out OOo.1.0.0 and replacing it with Ooo.1.1.2. worked with the with the new Java 1.4.2.06 version.

To read the EMF file open the drawing module and import as a graphic.
The slurs DON'T appear until 'Break' on the 'Modify' Menu is entered.

The export is still bad but the PDF out is OK.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #42 –
Kevin,

It worked like a charm & I only have Java 1.4.02. Thanks, indeed!!!

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #43 –
Addendum

Using the PDF created from OpenOffice is not recommended.

What does work, is to print to a good postscript driver and either extract the graphic using ghostscript or convert the postscript with acrobat.

One of the most reliable postscript drivers came with publisher 97 for imaging on an external printer. (Installing a postscript printer often works but not so consistently.)

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #45 –
Well the latest beta of OpenOffice.org (version 1.9, I think they're calling it) will handle the EMF - slurs and all! But once you try to edit it, it falls apart . . . Yikes!!
Sincerely,
Francis Beaumier
Green Bay, WI

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #46 –
I've seen suggestions for PDF creation software in this thread. Here's another suggestion, one that I use, CutePDF Writer:
http://www.acrosoftware.com/products/cutepdf/writer.asp

It relies on GhostScript to do the actual creation, so you'll need that, too. But the best part is that CutePDF installs itself as a printer driver, which makes it very easy to use. And it's also free for both personal and commercial use.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #47 –
What I have ended up doing has been to import the EMF file into Adobe Illustrator, convert text to outlines/paths, and export to WMF, which I can then import into MS Word, WordPerfect, OO, etc.  This has the advantage of allowing me to manually shorten note stems that would otherwise hang down into the lyrics.  I can also move the slurs around to the exact location that I want this way.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #48 –
Adobe Illustrator seems to do the best job of rediting EMF - maybe Corel Draw can do it, too?

However, Open Office and most other graphics-capable programs bungle the drawing when it is ungrouped for editing. I did some searching about this, and found out why.

When an EMF (or WMF) is opened or placed intact into a file (word processing or drawing), it is actually like an external object, still in native Windows EMF - WMF format. Its directives are handled by the Windows operating system, not by the word processing or drawing application. So, the intact EMF or WMF lloks good, because Windows interpets it. This also works with plain scaling and cropping.

However, if the EMF or WMF is ungrouped for editing, then its native directives must be converted into whichever language is used by the application. The conversion is often incorrect, because there is not a one-to-one relationship between native EMF - WMF instructions and the application's own drawing instructions. That's why the ungrouped EMF - WMF "falls apart" when edited. It is no longer handled directly by Windows.

Apparently, Adobe Illustrator does a better job at conversion. Also, Windows Clip Art, which comes with MS Word and has drawing in WMF format, apparently relies on the operating system for editing, since these can be edited within MS Word accurately. It may be that the Clip Art uses only a subset of the EMF - WMF instruction set.

When you use a program such as Irfan View to open an EMF (it is not as good for WMF), the original EMF is converted to a bitmap (raster) form. Thus, it cannot be edited except as a bitmap painting. There is no issue of drawing instruction set.

Re: Print preview copying, stem lengths, and slur positioning

Reply #49 –
... furthermore, this suggests that if the ties and slurs appear for some users, but not for others, it may be that the particular user's Windows operating system needs an update - or, in the alternative, something previously present is now missing in later versions. It amy also be that the EMF - WMF interpreter is changed if a MS application is installed, which may mean that anything can happen, depending in which application and how recent.