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Topic: MMR for coupled staves (Read 9049 times) previous topic - next topic

MMR for coupled staves

I notated a score for two harps (see attached file), then I tried to extract the two parts.
Extracting the harp I alone, I expected two MMR at the beginning.
Nope: the MMR are expanded.

Single staff printing and multi staff printing can't be of help.

The only way to have them showing up as MMR was to set their visibility to "always".
Inconvenient, don't you agree?

[attachment deleted by user]

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #1 –
The MMRs are designed to be used with collapsable staves.  Often the first system of an instrumental will show all parts but after that parts in an MMR will disappear from a system.

Have you tried the Multi Measure Tool?  It creates and cancels the collapse as needed but only looks at real whole rests right now.

Does this work for you?

2013-02-10 0630
Since 1998

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #2 –
Sorry Warren but... does the boundary changes change something about the MMR? I can't see anytrhing different.

What I want is:
- when I print the full score, then the MMR must be expanded as whole rest bars;
- when I print only one instrument that tacet for a while, then I want to see the MMR.

By the way: nothing so strange. If you do that on a violin and piano sonata with a piano solo intro, NWC already works exacly as I described.
The problem is when the intro is for violin solo and piano tacet! (That is: when, like in my case, the instrument that tacet is a "grand staff" instrument)

Is it clearer now?

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #3 –
How about this?
Registered user since 1996

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #4 –
Well, nice trick, Rick.
That's closer, but I don't understand why it doesn't expand the MMR when printing the full score.

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
By the way: nothing so strange. If you do that on a violin and piano sonata with a piano solo intro, NWC already works exacly as I described.
The problem is when the intro is for violin solo and piano tacet! (That is: when, like in my case, the instrument that tacet is a "grand staff" instrument)

If a one staff instrument starts unaccompanied, I would like for the piece to start with violin and piano (and other instruments if necessary) on the first system to show what instruments are used, even though the piano is resting.  For the rest of the intro, only the violin would be on each system.  When the piano comes in, there might be a few measures rest (or not) at the beginning of that system.

I'm not sure what you need to see.  Can you attach an image?
Since 1998

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #6 –
I'd expect something like this, although for two instruments it's debatable whether you'd show both on the first system. But for larger ensembles this would seem to fit the bill.

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #7 –
Sorry, apparently I can't explain clearly.

Quote
- when I print the full score, then the MMR must be expanded as whole rest bars;

That's ok, perfect, no problem, NWC does it very well.

Quote
- when I print only one instrument that tacet for a while, then I want to see the MMR.

I mean: when I print (let me say: "extract") only one part.
For example, the violin alone or the piano alone in a violin and piano sonata.

If the extracted part that's silent for a while is formed by only one staff (e.g. violin, clarinet, flute...), no problem. NWC does it perfectly with all the needed MBRs.

If the extracted part that's silent for a while is a grand staff (e.g. piano, harp, guitar... whatever), then I want to see the MMRs, but that doesn't happen. That is: NWC thinks this is a multi-instrument score and handles it as the full score, so no MMR unless I force them with visibility = always.
Of course that's an overkill for when I want to print the full score...

Maybe later I'll post a couple of images.

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #8 –
Could this be resolved with an "if" type of statement?  i.e.,
 
If staves are connected by a grand staff brace, the MMR logic should treat them as one staff.



 

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #9 –
Quote
If staves are connected by a grand staff brace, the MMR logic should treat them as one staff.

Yes, sure. That would be the best solution.

The problem is that, at least the moment, it's not so and I can't think any workaround.

Just in case, here attached you can find an example of what I want.

[attachment deleted by user]

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #10 –
I hope Eric will find a way to implement the conditional logic, because it would seem to fix your issue.  The only wrinkles I can think of are:

  • whether or not some instruments are commonly notated with three staffs?  Maybe a pipe organ, for instance?
  • would we want it to apply to instrumental groups which we might connect with a grand staff, as might be the case in a jazz score for reeds, trumpets, brass and rhythm?

Perhaps the conditional logic could be subject to a user control to toggle it on or off for the entire song.

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #11 –
I see the problem but I'm not sure MMRs are the proper solution. I think if I were scoring for a harp and any other instrument - including another harp - I would use a reduced score ("French score") if rests in the harp part went on for more than one system. In other words, collapse both staves of the silent harp part through the section where only one harp plays. If the harp is silent for less than one system, the silent part should be filled out with regular rests.

I suppose the argument could be made that you might want to print one of the harp parts individually. But as a harpist, I wouldn't want that. I would want to see what the other part was doing.

I've just been through this with a two-piano work, BTW, so it's not academic for me. I'm pretty sure the two pianists who performed it were happier with scores for each of them that showed both parts when both parts were playing. That's standard two-piano format.

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Just in case, here attached you can find an example of what I want.

If you take my attachment from an earlier post and delete the boundary collapse commands, it looks like you'll have what you need.
Since 1998

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #13 –
Warren, I'm puzzled.
If I delete the boundary collapse commands from your attachment, then I get exactly (item per item) my example wich, obviously, has the problem.
Sorry, but I don't understand.

Bill, I see your point.
Indeed often the violin and piano sonatas, in the piano part, have an extra small staff with small notes that shows what the violin plays.

But what about a full orchestral score?
Does, for example, the harp part show always the whole orchestral score?

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #14 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
The only way to have them showing up as MMR was to set their visibility to "always".
Inconvenient, don't you agree?
Not really, no. Use the Find Command for Multi-meaure Rest and then run: Quickly Set Visibility for Selected Items on each staff in the Arpa 1 group. A short summary added to File Info->Comments should suffice.

If that is too difficult then set MMR's up for parts printing (in this case, Visibility:Always), and if you don't like the way the score prints, run this tool on it:
Code: (rg_HideMMR.php) [Select · Download]
<?php
// rg_HideMMR.php ver 0.90; 
// Ref: http://my.noteworthysoftware.com/?topic=8414.0
// Input Type: File Text [X]
// Options: Returns File Text [X]
// --------
require_once ('lib/nwc2clips.inc');
$io = gzfile('php://stdin');
$RMB = preg_grep('/^\|RestMultiBar\|/', $io);
foreach ($RMB as $k => $ln) {
  $o = new NWC2ClipItem($ln);
  $o->Opts['Visibility'] = 'Never';
  $io[$k] = $o->ReconstructClipText().PHP_EOL;
}
echo join($io);
?>
Registered user since 1996

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #15 –
Well, ok.

Also, with a more sophisticated syntax, I can use the Global modification tool to change the visibility of all the MBR at once.

I can also define a couple of "tools" that are simply Global modification with predefined command lines to set MBR visibility to always and to default.
In this way, the change is just a matter of a few clicks.

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #16 –
...and re the harp part in an orchestral piece: no, they don't usually play from a full score. You'll have to enter the MMRs by hand in that case. (Looks like you and Rick have worked out a couple of relatively easy ways to switch back and forth between the MMR version and the written-out rests.)

Sorry to be a bit late with this reply. I have a piano quintet being premiered soon (scored with NWC, of course) and I've been busy.

Bill

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #17 –
Now that I tried my idea, I think it's fair to explicit it for the ones that don't feel comfortable with global_mod (like myself not so long ago).

The command lines I use are:
Code: [Select · Download]
php\php.exe scripts\adp_GlobalMod.php RestMultiBar Visibility=Always
and, of course,
Code: [Select · Download]
php\php.exe scripts\adp_GlobalMod.php RestMultiBar Visibility=Default
with input type = file text and Returns File Text.

But now I discovered another thing.

In "File Info" I only have the title. All the other fields are blank because I cleared them; I want them so.
After applying the tools I get: Author = <Name>, Copyright notice 1 = Copyright © 2013 <Name> and Copyright notice 1 = All Rights Reserved.

Quite annoying!

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
In "File Info" I only have the title. All the other fields are blank because I cleared them
Instead of clearing Author:, Copyright1:, and Copyright2:, try using a <space>.

IMO, NWC would be improved if it did not supply a default to those fields when they are empty.

One of the reasons my ZenTxt tool remains unpublished is because of the hack I needed to solve this very problem.
Registered user since 1996

Re: MMR for coupled staves

Reply #19 –
Quote
try using a <space>.

Good idea, thank you.