Skip to main content

Topic: Dumb question, but ... (Read 13148 times) previous topic - next topic

Dumb question, but ...
I don't have time to look through the entire forum, but I suspect this has been answered before.  I'm a fairly new - and rather timid - user of Noteworthy 2, and I've noticed that on some "ready made" music I've copied from various sources, as well as editing I've done my self, some of the symbols don't "work" in playback on my computer.  Most notably is the fermata.  Why does it work sometimes and not others? Is there a way I can make it work.  I've also tried putting in pedal symbols, and they have no effect.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #1
I've also found errors concerning accidentals that I can't correct.  Are there circumstances under which you can't change them?  In one case, for instance, there is a d# in the alto line, and the soprano line is supposed to be a d natural, but I can't change it, and it insists on being a d# also.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #2
Regarding fermatas, the default is to have it extend the note value by zero sixteenth notes (i.e. display only). If you select the fermata, right click, select properties, click on the "Tempo Variance" tab, you can select the number of extra sixteenth notes to hold the note.
Regarding accenditals: do the soprano and alto appear to be on the same staff? If so, they are probably actually on two different staves, and layered together. To see the staves separately, un-check "Layering in Edit Mode" under the View menu. There should also be a toolbar icon to do that. On mine, it is right text to the eyeglasses.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #3
There are some music notation symbols in NWC that are there for a live performer's benefit and don't affect playback, but the fermata isn't one of them. However, you do have to tell it how long you want it to pause. Select its anchor (that's the gray symbol, to the fermata's left by default, that either looks like a ship's anchor or a small diamond) and press <alt><enter> to bring up its properties dialog. You'll find a spinner there that will let you set the delay, in 16th-note increments.

Pedal symbols also should work, but they only work on the staff they are placed on; so if you place them on the bottom staff of a piano piece - where you would be likely to see them in published music - they won't affect what's going on in the upper staff. You need to place them on both staves. You can make those on the upper staff invisible, so they won't appear when you print the piece.

As to the accidentals, I'm not sure what the problem is, but from your description I'd suggest that you simply need to add a natural sign to the d in the soprano. NWC will "correct" the sound to a perfect octave unless it is specifically told not to. This is standard notational practice. You can't change an accidental on a single member of a chord in NWC, so you will have to erase the note and re-add it to the chord with the natural sign in place. To erase a single note from a chord, place the cursor directly to the right of the note you want to get rid of (same line or space) and press <ctrl><backspace>.

HTH -

Bill

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #4
Pedal symbols also should work, but they only work on the staff they are placed on;
Pedal symbols affect the MIDI channel of the staff they are placed on.

Each Pedal Style:Down needs to be followed by a Pedal Style:Released. It may be desireable to set Visibility:Never on some of the Pedal Style:Released objects.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #5
Pedal symbols affect the MIDI channel of the staff they are placed on.

Right. But Susanna is a self-confessed "timid" beginner, and I didn't think she needed to be confused by the difference between a MIDI channel and a staff. For practical purposes, in NWC scores of less than 16 staves, they are one and the same.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #6
Well, the information on the fermata is helpful (haven't tried to execute it yet);  I did use both the Pedal and release symbols, but that's not as important to me as the fermata. 

In regard to the accidentals, I downloaded a ton of stuff from cyberhymnal, and I didn't have layering mode turned on.  In fact, it took me quite some time to figure out how to turn it on.  I did "fix" the accidental on one score, but after a number of tries, and I don't know what I did differently the time it worked.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #7
Anyway, thanks to all who responded.  I'll muddle along for a while on my own.  I really don't spend a lot of time working with Noteworthy Composer, but I'd like to get a little bit proficient.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #8
With the accidentals - I wonder whether this is actually a chorded note - i.e. a single stave, with both a D# and a Dnat on the same line.  NWC happily accepts this, but when you select it, there's no option to change the accidental.  The solution is to delete one of the notes (Ctrl-backspace) and then put it back in correctly (Ctrl-return).

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #9
While I was fooling around with chords, attempting to answer the question about d and d#, I was confused by Noteworthy's behavior, and curious about how it SHOULD be displayed. I placed a D# (cursor on D, press #, press enter), then pressed ctl-enter on the same staff line. The note moved over slightly (why?) and the note now had a sharp and two stems -- up and down. When I tried entering the natural note first, it looked the same. When I played it, it seemed to play both notes, but looking at it, it looked like two D#s chorded together. I also tried entering a Dnat with a D# and saw one two-stemmed note with both a sharp and a natural. In real music would this need to be shown as a D chorded with an Eb instead of D#? Is there any way to show a chord of D# and Dnat in the same octave?

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #10
I placed a D# (cursor on D, press #, press enter), then pressed ctl-enter on the same staff line. The note moved over slightly (why?)
It is a bug. In NWC 2.5 (beta), you can compensate for the extra space with the new Spacer object:
Quote from: NWC 2.5 Beta Preview 5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Spacer|Width:0
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#2|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:#2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I also tried entering a Dnat with a D# and saw one two-stemmed note with both a sharp and a natural.
That is what it should look like.
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n2|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:#2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
If you want 2 noteheads, you may need a layer. If you want to show only one stem you will need a layer unless you add an accidental as text.

In real music would this need to be shown as a D chorded with an Eb instead of D#?
Strange definition of "real music" :)
Registered user since 1996

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #11
In my case, the accidental was at the beginning of the measure, but the d# on the alto line carried through the entire measure.  Except for that next to last note(s) in the measure, the soprano part is a c.  I tried the instructions to delete the single note, but they didn't work.  I doubt if it was done as a chord note, from what little experience I've had with noteworthy, I don't think it would work like that.  I think this music came directly from the arrangement in a hymnbook.  Except that I am used to it written in a different key, it is exactly (all the parts) what I'm familiar with - with the exception that the d natural is defaulting to a d#.  There is no accidental on the soprano line. Why would it default as though there were?  Is that perhaps a bug in noteworthy?

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #12
Hi Susanna,
any accidental in a bar (measure) will affect all the subsequent notes of the same pitch (on the same line or space) for the rest of the bar (measure) unless there is a negating accidental (natural, flat, double sharp etc.).  This is standard notation practice.

However, when the parts are "divisi" but on the same staff then an accidental on a stem up note should not be interpreted as affecting a following stem down note on the same line or space.  NWC does not perform this differentiation thus it is necessary to place a negating accidental on the subsequent note of the other part.

This is not a problem if the parts are on layered staves, it only occurs if both parts are written as chords (they may be split stem or not)  on a single staff.

Another shortcoming of NWC is that if there is an accidental on one note, then, contrary to standard practice, it will affect the same note in all octaves. This also requires a negating natural that wouldn't normally be seen in a score (unless some nice arranger/notator decided to put in a courtesy accidental as a reminder).


Hopefully this will help.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - gonna lern tubies next

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #13
While I was fooling around with chords, attempting to answer the question about d and d#, I was confused by Noteworthy's behavior, and curious about how it SHOULD be displayed. I placed a D# (cursor on D, press #, press enter), then pressed ctl-enter on the same staff line. The note moved over slightly (why?) and the note now had a sharp and two stems -- up and down. When I tried entering the natural note first, it looked the same. When I played it, it seemed to play both notes, but looking at it, it looked like two D#s chorded together. I also tried entering a Dnat with a D# and saw one two-stemmed note with both a sharp and a natural. In real music would this need to be shown as a D chorded with an Eb instead of D#? Is there any way to show a chord of D# and Dnat in the same octave?
In my case, they aren't in the same octave, so it seems to me they shouldn't default to the same accidental, unless it's in both octaves - which it isn't.

I'm wondering if perhaps I have to delete both notes, re-add one, and then make a layer with the other.  Will that work, or will all the rests I put in the staff with the single note show up somewhere on the staff?

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #14
Hi Susanna,
any accidental in a bar (measure) will affect all the subsequent notes of the same pitch (on the same line or space) for the rest of the bar (measure) unless there is a negating accidental (natural, flat, double sharp etc.).  This is standard notation practice.

However, when the parts are "divisi" but on the same staff then an accidental on a stem up note should not be interpreted as affecting a following stem down note on the same line or space.  NWC does not perform this differentiation thus it is necessary to place a negating accidental on the subsequent note of the other part.

This is not a problem if the parts are on layered staves, it only occurs if both parts are written as chords (they may be split stem or not)  on a single staff.

Another shortcoming of NWC is that if there is an accidental on one note, then, contrary to standard practice, it will affect the same note in all octaves. This also requires a negating natural that wouldn't normally be seen in a score (unless some nice arranger/notator decided to put in a courtesy accidental as a reminder).


Hopefully this will help.
That's what I've been trying to do, and it won't accept it.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #15
Quote
I'm wondering if perhaps I have to delete both notes, re-add one, and then make a layer with the other.  Will that work, or will all the rests I put in the staff with the single note show up somewhere on the staff?


Layering should work.  To hide the rests in the layered staff, select them all, press Ctrl-E for Properties, go to Visibility, and select Show on Printed Page = Never.


Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #16
If you've downloaded this from a public site, could you just tell us what the music is, where it came from and which bar(s) and we'll have a look?

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #17
www hymntime com/tch/htm/w/o/n/wondergj.htm

I don't have a bar count on it (forgot how to add that, and can't find it in a hurry) but it's the 4th bar from the end.

It won't let me post a link (what are the requirements for that?)  Putting in a pseudo link - just without the http and the first 2 dots.

Never mind that last question - I found the "upgrade" info.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #18
This is your link: http://www.hymntime.com/tch/htm/w/o/n/wondergj.htm.

The lyrics on the tenor/bass line don't line up.  Select that staff, do <cntl>/L and delete the last underline before "Won-der-ful" to fix it.

Welcome to the forum!
Since 1998

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #19
To set up bar number, go File, Page Setup, Options, Staff Labels.

To correct the Dnat to D#, place your cursor after the note, on the 4th line of the staff, level with the D.  Hit Ctrl-Backspace to delete the upper Dnat.  Hit the 9 key on the keypad to turn on sharps.  Hit the 3 key to make sure you enter a quarter note.  Hit Ctrl-Return to add a new note to the chord.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #20
You have discovered a longstanding bug in NoteWorthy. I won't bore and confuse you with all the links to the discussion. The bottom line is that there are no plans to fix it. :(

The problem chord is on the top staff. Beat 3 of Measure 29.
The lower d is sharped, but the upper d should be natural. NoteWorthy incorrectly plays it as a sharp. To get correct playback, replace beats 3 and 4 with:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#-5,n2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#-5,1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
This is in line with most modern practice. Accidentals are shown when ambiguous.

If you split things out into layers, you gain more flexibility over how accidentals are played and displayed.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #21
Warren - I don't see that they don't line up.  I did see, though, there is an extra "s" in "matchless", and fixed that.

Phil & Rick - thanks for the info.  I'll save it to my computer and work on it when I'm off-line.

Oops, Phil, it's the other way around - the d that is not marked as a sharp (top line) is supposed to be a d natural, but plays as a sharp.
  • Last Edit: 2011-03-05 09:04 pm by Susanna

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #22
Why in the world are there no plans to fix it?  Is the solution that complex?  I used to work for a software company, and that sort of thing would have been completely unacceptable to our customers.  Or perhaps noteworthy is the only - or best - player in the game, and doesn't feel that it's necessary to fix everything?

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #23
Warren - I don't see that they don't line up.
They don't. Male and female voices should be singing the same rhythm at the start of the refrain. You can see the problem at the bottom of page 1.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #24
They don't. Male and female voices should be singing the same rhythm at the start of the refrain. You can see the problem at the bottom of
They appear lined up on the copy I have on my computer.  I downloaded it from that site.

Edit: I may have fixed it since I downloaded it; it has been quite a while, and I've fixed a few things here and there.  - Yep, I still have the unedited copy, so somewhere along the line, I fixed it.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #25
One more question, Rick - how do I find the information on how to convert the code you posted?  I really feel stupid, having been a programmer for more than 25 years, but this type of code is new to me.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #26
One more question, Rick - how do I find the information on how to convert the code you posted?
You select it, then copy it. Select the items in NWC that you want to replace and then paste.

I'm a fairly new - and rather timid - user of Noteworthy 2
Why in the world are there no plans to fix it?  Is the solution that complex?  I used to work for a software company, and that sort of thing would have been completely unacceptable to our customers.  Or perhaps noteworthy is the only - or best - player in the game, and doesn't feel that it's necessary to fix everything?
What a difference a few days make  :)

The most recent discussion is <here>. As I posted in Reply #9, This is, I believe, the last official word:
This is an architectural quirk of NWC. Note accidentals apply in all octaves within the bar. The way to avoid the problem at present is to always use the correct accidental in all other octaves of that same named note after you use an accidental in one octave of the named note.
Unfortunately, "at present" has now spanned half a decade.

NoteWorthy Composer is useful software, well worth the price. It is not without its quirks. These bother some folks more than others.

Edit: It is not as though NoteWorthy is indifferent. NWC2 provides the Find Command to identify this problem:
Quote from: http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/nwc2/help/MNU_FIND.htm
This find method has a set of predefined find algorithms which can be used to search for objects in the staff. The Unassigned Octave Accidental algorithms can be useful when trying to resolve octave intervals in a staff that do not sound as expected.
  • Unassigned Octave Accidental: When an accidental is assigned to a note in one octave, notes of the same pitch in that bar that appear in different octaves should have an accidental assigned to them as well, in order to avoid confusion. This find category helps to quickly locate notes in different octaves that do not have an accidental assignment, but probably should have one.
  • Last Edit: 2011-03-05 10:52 pm by Rick G.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #27
I suppose they have other issues that they see as more pressing.  Yes, it is fine software, as far as that goes.  If I were doing the transcribing from scratch (knowing the problem) I'd make sure I handled it right.  Most programming errors have "work arounds."

And thanks for all the help.

Edit: you are right, it is well worth the price.  Having worked for a software house, I know that only too well.  Of course, that was for very large businesses only, not for individuals, who probably are mostly using it for their own pleasure.  I can't write music myself neatly enough to be very legible, and the software does at least that.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #28
The software does far more than just that.  An example is the ability to transpose parts before printing them from an ensemble composition written in concert pitch.  It takes maybe 2 seconds to transpose each part. 

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #29
And the ability to hear what you write as you write it....or later, to listen to the entire piece without having to round up performers. And the ability to print multiple copies on demand. And to correct single-note errors without having to recopy an entire page (or leave eraser marks). And to create sequences by copying the first instance, pasting, and then simply shifting the pasted notes up or down as a group. And...and....and....

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #30
... and the magic includes workarounds for many limitations, as well as a very easy learning curve compared to some competing programs that cost more.

Re: Dumb question, but ...
Reply #31
...and don't forget user tools!
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - gonna lern tubies next