Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: 24th Duration Note (Read 11254 times) previous topic - next topic

24th Duration Note

How can I do it?

Thanks

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #1 –
As a theoretical construct, a 24th note would be mid way between a 16th note and a 32nd note. This is more commonly known as a dotted 32nd note.
Warren seems to have nailed it. Verbal reference to 24th notes about 1 minute into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLwyzjoB9B8&feature=player_embedded

Some discussion of it here:
http://www.snarescience.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=547&start=0

The subject is not new to this forum:
Quote from: Carl –
you can just write it all out.  Use 32nd notes and 64th notes for flams and write out diddles and rolls with 32nd or 24th notes.  You just need to understand what the sound is and how it is metered.


Drummers seem to inhabit their own world with its own language.
Registered user since 1996

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #2 –
You can enter twenty-four 16th notes, select them, then enter Cntl/T to turn them into triplets.  HTH
Since 1998

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
As a theoretical construct, a 24th note would be mid way between a 16th note and a 32nd note. This is more commonly known as a dotted 32nd note.

Unless I'm missing something I'm not sure I agree.  My reasoning is:
1/24 = 2+2/3 * 64th's BUT
1/32 = 2/64 and the dot is another 1/64 which = 3/64 th's - it's too long.

BUT
1/24th is a 1/3rd of an 1/8 - dividing an 1/8th by 3 is done with 16th triplets.

So, I reckon 1/24th would be a 16th triplet.

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:8th,Triplet
|Rest|Dur:8th,Triplet=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

<Edit> Warren posted while I was writing - and said it a bit more simply...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #4 –
It seems simpler just to answer the original question "You can't.  There's no such thing." 

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #5 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
It seems simpler just to answer the original question "You can't.  There's no such thing." 
Except that a triplet 16th is the way to do it.  Although I agree that a 24th is not a normal musical time division in and of itself.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #6 –
Similarly said before,
if "24th" notes mean dividing whole note in 24,

it'll be
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:1/1
|Text|Text:"1"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"1"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-15|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-6
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"3"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"4"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"5"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"6"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-15|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"7"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-6
|Text|Text:"8"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"9"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"10"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"11"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"12"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"13"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"3"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-15|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-6
|Text|Text:"14"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"15"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"16"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"17"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"18"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"4"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-15|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"19"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First|Dur2:4th|Pos2:-6
|Text|Text:"20"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"21"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Text|Text:"22"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=First|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"23"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Text|Text:"24"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:13|Wide:Y|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:16th,Triplet=End|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

NWC User since 2008

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #7 –
That there are no "24th notes" defined as such simply reflects the ultimate division of music rhythm reflecting the bilateral symmetry of the human body, 2 feet, 2 hands, etc.  The body has either 1 or 2, but not 3, of limbs and organs.  Even compound time and 3/4 time, taken over phrase lengths rather than one measure, arrange their rhythmic pulses in 1's (entire measure of 3/4 or 3/8) or 2's (6/8 measure having 2 main pulses, 3/4 and 9/8 phrasing themselves in 2-measure units).  Leonard Bernstein described this in his TV series years ago, IIRC.  FWIW!

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #8 –
I guess I can't agree, Milton. While it's true that waltz time is usually felt in 1 and 6/8 is actually in 2 (basically, two triplets), 9/8 is a true three - the Irish slip jig cannot be done if you try to think of the music in 1s or 2s - and compound time signatures (5/4 is the simplest example) aren't felt in a steady rhythm at all. Compound time is relatively rare in western European musical traditions, but other cultures use it all the time. Bulgarian folk music, to pick one example, isn't metrical at all - they think in "longs" and "shorts," with the longs half again as long as the shorts, and they put these together into repeating patterns. When we try to write these out in western notation, we get weird time signatures like 17/8 or 22/16. It's easier to count them in 2s and 3s, as (e.g.) [1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2-3][1-2, 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2-3].... If the eighth note gets the count, that example has 12 eighth notes per pattern, but don't try to write it as 6/4 or you will totally miss the point, and certainly don't try to force it into a duple rhythm.

On the original topic of this thread, the easiest way to think of how 24th notes fit into our system of notation is to look at them as divisions of a whole note (that's where the names for the note durations in the American system come from). If you play 24 notes in the time of a whole note in one part and 16 notes in the time of a whole note in another, you get 24 against 16. Reduced to the lowest common denominator, that's 3 against 2. In other words, triplets. Pretty straightforward, actually.

Bill
 

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #9 –
Note:  While writing this, Bill responded with something similar, and I think we're both agreeing here...

I think to say that all music occurs in "2's" (or even "1's") is perhaps oversimplifying a bit.  Yes you can count 3/8 time in "1's", and 6/8 time in "2's".  But to say we count 9/8 time in "2's" by grouping measure pairs is kind of like being surprised that you can multiply any number by 2 and get an even number!  I think of it as we tend to count in prime factors (or sometimes multiples thereof), so 1 (technically not prime I know), 2, and 3 are most common.  Going to 5 and 7 counts starts to get tough on our human brains, so we tend to subdivide these (arithmetically, not geometrically :-) into 1's, 2's, and 3's.  I think some of the most interesting music comes from those who do not know how to read or write music!  They create music that almost (but not quite) defies description using our classic (and somewhat limiting) view of measure divisions and time signatures.  [The intro to the song "Changes" by the group "Yes" comes to mind, although if they read/write music, I'd point out that Paul McCartney could not, until quite recently.]

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #10 –
A time signature (other than common time and alla breve) is like a fraction with a numerator and a denominator.  I take no issue with strange numbers going into the numerator - I think I even have seen something like 17 1/2   over 1.  The number of beats in a bar are shown by the denominator, and you can have 2, 4, 7, 13, 17, whatever, beats to the bar if you're into music from various origins.

That isn't the issue though.  The issue is the denominator, which is in integers, not fractions.  The denominator tells the musician what note value gets one beat.  I guess you could write 321/2 as the denominator in order to get a 24th note, but that would be viewed askance by most musicians, unless they're smoking the funny stuff.


Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #11 –
Quote
The issue is the denominator, which is in integers, not fractions.

Did you ever saw the scores that uses the actual note image (e.g. a crotchet) as denominator?
Formally this would be the most "mathematically" correct form!
And, yes, you can actually say that it's an integer. :-)

Re: 24th Duration Note

Reply #12 –
Slight difference with you, David. You are correct that the bottom note of the time signature always needs to be an integer value in music stemming from the western European tradition. However, this doesn't rule out unusual divisions of the beat: it is only tradition that causes us to prefer triplets to 24th notes. And if you're not from a western European tradition, all bets are off. Other cultures regularly think of beats as having more than one possible duration. In the Bulgarian example I quoted above, a Bulgarian folk musician wouldn't count it the way I did: he or she would think of it as being composed of long and short beats. Instead of counting [1-2,1-2,1-2-3,1-2,1-2-3], the Bulgarian would count [short-short-long-short-long]. Take it from a sometime kaval player. ;-)