Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

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Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

2010-12-26 04:25 pm

IMO, when the Blank Space Notehead is selected, the augmentation dots should appear as grey in the Editor and not appear in the Viewer or Print Preview, and no space for augmentation dots should be reserved in Viewer or Print Preview.

When the Blank Space Notehead is in use, chances are good that the user is adding a notehead as text and it would be a simple matter to add any augmentation dots needed as text.

This change would aid in fixing those few cases where NWC misplaces augmentation dots. It would also aid in those songs that are visibly in simple meter but are being scored in compound meter. Duplets would also benefit from this change.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #1 – 2010-12-26 11:20 pm

I agree that the dot shouldn't appear. Not so sure about space being reserved: I haven't tested this, but it seems as though the space might be needed in most cases. In cases where it was not needed and would create spacing problems among the notes with visible heads, adding one or two extra spaces to one or more of the visible noteheads via the "add extra space" command should be adequate. (Of course, this might also work the other direction: adding spaces where the lack of extra space for the dot caused problems.)

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #2 – 2010-12-27 04:53 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2010-12-26 11:20 pm

I agree that the dot shouldn't appear.

Thanks for responding. This is one of those abstract issues that doesn't get much response from folks until they want some special formatting that NWC refuses to provide.

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2010-12-26 11:20 pm

Not so sure about space being reserved: I haven't tested this, but it seems as though the space might be needed in most cases.

Perhaps, but I was trying to be consistent with:

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online – 2007-01-03 11:09 pm

Our goal for hidden items in NWC2: In print, the actual space occupied by a section that includes hidden notes should never exceed the space occupied by that same section with the hidden items deleted.

IMO, the same case can be made for hidden augmentation dots as for "hidden notes".

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #3 – 2010-12-27 08:32 am

Hmmm, something to think about but my first thoughts are that a blank space notehead that you are describing is not quite the same thing as the hidden items that NoteWorthy declared their goal for. Distinctly different things although may be used to the same end in some cases.

Also, looking now at your case for hidden augmentation dots, there are instances where you might want the space to be maintained. That is where you are using hidden rests on a chord to build tremolos. But I guess you could always move a non hidden rest into the area above 2000.

Needs more consideration . Bah .......

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #4 – 2010-12-27 08:55 pm

Quote

and no space for augmentation dots should be reserved in Viewer or Print Preview

I like your idea, Rick, except I'm not sure I understand agree with this quote. I would like to have the dots invisible in the print preview and viewer, and of course, when printing, but I would like the space taken up by the dots to be kept.

The reason is that when I use a 0-stem headless note to anchor text-based comping slashes, I like the flexibility it would seem to give me to indicate rhythm changes. For instance, slashes on beats 1 the second half of beat 2.

Mind you, with something like that I'd probably want to show an eighth rest too, but I haven't thought through this yet.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #5 – 2011-01-01 05:41 pm

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2010-12-27 08:32 am

Hmmm, something to think about but my first thoughts are that a blank space notehead that you are describing is not quite the same thing as the hidden items that NoteWorthy declared their goal for.

The notehead is blank , rather than hidden, but the proposal is to hide the augmentation dot. IMO, (an opinion that seems to be shared by NoteWorthy), hidden items should not change spacing.

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2010-12-27 08:32 am

where you are using hidden rests on a chord to build tremolos.

Example? (I've tried to imagine where this might be an issue, but I can't)

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2010-12-27 08:32 am

But I guess you could always move a non hidden rest into the area above 2000.

Since the introduction of the HideRest option, I have not found an instance where I need to do this. It is quite the kludge, it does rather strange things to the EMF file (both the one that you might create from Print Preview and the spool file that Windows creates for printing.) I would regret the User Tip that I wrote except that it was probably responsible for the HideRest option being added to NWC 2.1

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2010-12-27 08:55 pm

I use a 0-stem headless note to anchor text-based comping slashes, I like the flexibility it would seem to give me to indicate rhythm changes. For instance, slashes on beats 1 the second half of beat 2.

I would think that reserving space for hidden augmentation dots works against you. If your goal is to have spacing indicate rhythm, a dotted 16th should not use more space than an 8th. I have little use for comping slashes in my work, but if they are common for enough users, NWC should support them directly. As it is, slurs and ties don't work very well with noteheads that are twice as tall as standard noteheads.

Thanks again to both of you for looking at this.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #6 – 2011-01-01 07:47 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2011-01-01 05:41 pm

(an opinion that seems to be shared by NoteWorthy), hidden items should not change spacing.

But this isn't hidden - it's blank, so a dot should be also be blank (invisible as opposed to hidden) to be consistent with the notehead but neither notehead nor dot should change default spacing since they are not hidden. This would still agree with NoteWorthy's goal for hidden items as opposed to blank items.

Quote from: Rick G. – 2011-01-01 05:41 pm

where you are using hidden rests on a chord to build tremolos.
Example? (I've tried to imagine where this might be an issue, but I can't)

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #7 – 2011-01-01 09:37 pm

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2011-01-01 07:47 pm

But this isn't hidden - it's blank, so a dot should be also be blank (invisible as opposed to hidden) to be consistent with the notehead but neither notehead nor dot should change default spacing since they are not hidden. This would still agree with NoteWorthy's goal for hidden items as opposed to blank items

My proposal is for the dots to be hidden. I need a construct that has the duration of a dotted note but the appearance of an undotted note. If I can't get the same minimum spacing out of it an undotted notes it has little value. Others can easily add space between notes, but the minimum space I get with space reserved for the dots is not useful.

Your tremolo example makes no sense to me. Possibly if you attach and example with all the layers.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #8 – 2011-01-01 09:46 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2011-01-01 09:37 pm

My proposal is for the dots to be hidden. I need a construct that has the duration of a dotted note but the appearance of an undotted note. If I can't get the same minimum spacing out of it an undotted notes it has little value. Others can easily add space between notes, but the minimum space I get with space reserved for the dots is not useful.

Perhaps the real answer should be an optional note property for hidden augmentation dots. I have a feeling you've suggested just this elsewhere but I don't remember for certain and am not up bothering with a search at the moment.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #9 – 2011-01-01 09:58 pm

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2011-01-01 09:46 pm

Perhaps the real answer should be an optional note property for hidden augmentation dots.

It would probably be useful to have control over each element of every object. The problem is that the User Interface becomes intimidating and unwieldy. My thought was simply that since the user is suppling a custom notehead, it might not be too much to ask of the user to also supply the augmentation dot if one is needed. Perhaps I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time ...

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2011-01-01 09:46 pm

I have a feeling you've suggested just this elsewhere

I have (I'll find it if anyone is really curious.)

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #10 – 2011-01-01 10:16 pm

Quote from: Rick G. – 2011-01-01 09:37 pm

Your tremolo example makes no sense to me. Possibly if you attach and example with all the layers.

Not refined but this sort of thing - I know you have a different way of doing these, using additional layers and using actual beamed notes with blank noteheads, but this is just the simple way, One layer for the tremolo and one hidden layer for the sounding notes.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #11 – 2011-01-01 10:37 pm

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2011-01-01 10:16 pm

Not refined but this sort of thing

I don't see any Blank Space Noteheads being used in your attachment, so I don't understand why you think that this change would impact it.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #12 – 2011-01-01 10:51 pm

Maybe we have got our wires crossed here - but I was referring to your other link where you said :

Quote from: Rick G. – 2010-12-15 05:44 pm

I understand the spacing of the first measure but IMO, the notes in the second measure should be evenly spaced. The rests are hidden, and their hidden augumention dots should not affect spacing.

I replied that you might want them to when you use hidden rests for tremolos.

In this case, the rests are hidden but the dots should make a difference. In this instance, I wasn't talking about blank noteheads, and I don't believe you were in the examples you gave.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #13 – 2011-01-02 01:26 am

Quote

I would think that reserving space for hidden augmentation dots works against you. If your goal is to have spacing indicate rhythm, a dotted 16th should not use more space than an 8th.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #14 – 2011-01-02 02:53 am

Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2011-01-01 10:16 pm

One layer for the tremolo and one hidden layer for the sounding notes.

And text in between. With that method, when NWC justifies this line you will need to manually adjust the positioning of the tremolo slashes. There is no text placement option to "center between notes". The existing wider spacing will be better some of the time and narrower spacing will be better some of the time ...

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #15 – 2011-01-02 03:03 am

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2011-01-02 01:26 am

I think it could be useful to retain the visible dot

You could simply use this instead:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Bar
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Text|Text:"/"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-3|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1z
|Text|Text:" z"|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:-1|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"/"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-3|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1z
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:"/"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-3|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1z
|Text|Text:"/"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-3|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1z
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

And if you created your own font to get a comping slash that looked professional sheet music, you combine a slash and a dot into one glyph.

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #16 – 2011-01-02 04:50 am

I've been contemplating this, and my feeling is that if it isn't acceptable for some reason to have a hidden augmentation dot property, then a headless note should probably be dotless too.

The downside of this would be current user tools that would need to be rewritten to place dots where necessary as well as the replacement head...

Re: Blank Space Notehead proposal (augmentation dots)

Reply #17 – 2011-01-02 05:04 am

After some thought, I've come down with Rick on the side of hiding the augmentation dot on a headless dotted note and reserving no space for the dot. There are uses for both behaviors (reserve space/don't reserve space); but space can be added much more easily in NWC than it can be taken away.