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Rehearsal letters?

I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on what rehearsal letters would look like, if they were ever to be supported natively in NWC.  I think everyone would agree they would be a property of a bar line, but I have some other questions:

  • Would the rehearsal letter for each bar line be limited to a single character?  (e.g. would some want AA, BB, etc for a large piece with more than 26 rehearsal points?)
  • Would the rehearsal letter(s) be limited to uppercase letters?  Should lowercase letters be allowed?  Should numbers be allowed?  Should all ASCII letters be allowed?
  • Could rehearsal letters be allocated automatically, A and up, from start to end, via a simple checkbox?  Inserting a new rehearsal letter could automatically bump up all following letters.
  • Would an offset be needed, to vary the height of the rehearsal letter above the staff?  There is currently no such control for measure numbers.
  • Would the font for rehearsal letters have to be specified separately, or could a common one be used (like measure numbers)?
  • Would circles and/or boxes around rehearsal letters be required as options?
  • If a bar line that has a rehearsal letter happens to fall at a system break (randomly, or purposely via the break property), would the rehearsal letter go over the line before the automatic clef (as with measure numbers) or after the automatic clef and key signature (if not key of C) or somewhere in between?  Depending on where it went, it may have to replace the measure number for that system.

I've seen that go-to a rehearsal letter would be nice too.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #1 –
Rehearsal marks are boxed, circled or plain, just like bar numbers.

When using letters as rehearsal marks, uppercase is almost always used. They need not start at "A", since the song may not start at the beginning of the score. "I" is often (but not always) skipped to avoid confusion with "J" and/or "1". When "Z" is reached, the usual sequence is: "AA", "BB", to "ZZ". I have never seen a score that goes beyond "ZZ".

Numbers are often used instead of letters. Rarely, these may extend into the hundreds. As with letters, it cannot be assumed that "1" is the first mark.

The font used is sometimes unique to the score.

Rehearsal marks are often moved horizontally and/or vertically to avoid other notation. IMO, this cannot be done automatically to everyone's satisfaction.

I agree that rehearsal marks are most properly classified within NWC's context (i.e. in the absence of a SysBreak object) as the property of the Bar object. But if there is a SysBreak, either explicit or implied, the mark must be moved to the next line. IMO this should happen with all text aligned as Left or Center, AtNextBar. This would create problems for proper horizontal/vertical placement. What looks good at page left may look awful at page right.

There are some exceptions:
Quote from: http://www.informatics.indiana.edu/donbyrd/CMNExtremes.htm
4. Rehearsal mark
  a.  Longest {B & I 7.15}. Strauss: An Alpine Symphony has one of four characters: "114a" (all or nearly all the other rehearsal marks are the expected consecutive integers).

Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #2 –
The Boxmark2 font found in Scriptorium will let you add rehearsal letters or numbers as text. Single uppercase letters will display/print as uppercase with a box around them.  To do rehearsal numbers hold down the shift while doing an opening bracket, the number(s), and closing bracket.  E.g., for rehearsal number 23 enter [23] shifted.  When entering the text it will be {@#} but the 23 will appear in the score has having a rectangle around it.

I doubt it can handle more than one letter though. Use something like page title text or staff bold.

HTH
Since 1998

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
The only real advantage in NoteWorthy having this functionality would  be [...] to have a go-to rehearsal mark function
I concur. Native ability to box, circle, and underline text would be higher on my priority list.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #4 –
I concur with everything that's been said so far. It should also be noted, however, that in some modern scores the practice is to place a rehearsal letter every X number of measures; usually every ten measures, but sometimes more (I can't recall ever seeing less). For those who want to follow that convention, it would be useful to be able to automate the process, so for them, native rehearsal letters would have some value.

(I will not be among them. Rehearsal letters, in my view, should be placed for musical reasons, not just for counting. But maybe I'm just an old fogey - others have as much as said so. ;-)

Bill

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Rehearsal letters, in my view, should be placed for musical reasons, not just for counting.
Concur. I also feel that NWC should not enourage dubious practices by automating them. I suspect that some of the "modern" rehearsal mark practices you see are the result of novice or lazy notation software users.

I would much rather hear the conductor say: "pickups to E" than "pickups three before E".
Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #6 –
As a conductor, I was taught to say "Before  E, three measures." It is more important, if you are asking the orchestra to count back 20 measures, and they are all being paid scale.

Carl
Carl Bangs
Fenwick Parva Press
Registered user since 1995

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #7 –
Quote
in some modern scores the practice is to place a rehearsal letter every X number of measures;

Should this be the need, why not to write a user tool that does it automatically using some text marker?

In my experience, almost always these markers are in particular positions and their placement can not be automated.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #8 –
Quote
Native ability to box, circle, and underline text would be higher on my priority list.

So would this look like a new property for text expressions, perhaps called "Decorations"?  It's default value would be "None", but then there would be options for "Square Box" (square for 1 char, rectangle for more), "Rounded Box" (circle for 1 char, rounded rectangle for more), and "Underline"?  Would it be worth adding "Strikethrough"?  Are there any other possible decorations involving line-drawing and/or arc-drawing?
 

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Randy Williams –
So would this look like a new property for text expressions, perhaps called "Decorations"? 
I'd simply call it "Style", as in:
Quote
|Text|Text:"15"|Font:StaffItalic|Style:Circled|Pos:6
NWC already has box and circle routines for Bar Numbers:
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposer(2.0)
|PgSetup|BarNumbers:Circled|StartingBar:14
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff"
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar|SysBreak:Y
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposer-End

Quote from: Randy Williams –
"Rounded Box" (circle for 1 char, rounded rectangle for more)
Rounded Rectangle might help some as a separate style, but rehearsal letters/numbers need to be circles.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
I'd simply call it "Style"....
Concur. And I think it would be a helpful addition to NWC to be able to assign a style to other things besides measure numbers.

Quote
....but rehearsal letters/numbers need to be circles.
Not necessarily. Various scores in my score library have them circled, boxed, and plain. The important thing is to make them stand out from everything else, usually by making them big and bold. The style is less crucial.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Not necessarily. Various scores in my score library have them circled, boxed, and plain.
Do you really think I meant to suggest otherwise? But not many that are "rounded rectangles".
Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #12 –
Well, I kinda thought you would know. But your previous post could have given people who didn't know the wrong idea.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #13 –
Quote
Rounded Rectangle might help some as a separate style, but rehearsal letters/numbers need to be circles.

I just figured that the "circled" style could not really remain a circle as the text length got longer.  As I said, certainly for rehearsal letters/numbers (or any text that is a single character), it would truly be circled.  But once the text had 2 or more characters, I envisioned the "circle" being a rectangle, but with the "square bracket" on the right and left ends being replaced by a "half circle".  Does this make any more sense now?

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #14 –
My two cents worth - alphanumeric would be my preference.  I have seen rehearsal letters A, A1 and A2 in some pieces.  I'm not sure I've ever seen B1 or B2, but they'd be possible too, I imagine.

Having said that, I am satisifed with using text entries.  



(Very much an after-thought - A1 and A2 were probably on Lawrence Welk's charts!!!)

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
My two cents worth - alphanumeric would be my preference.  I have seen rehearsal letters A, A1 and A2 in some pieces.  I'm not sure I've ever seen B1 or B2, but they'd be possible too, I imagine.
I have had a few conductors add rehearsal symbols like that when they felt the printed symbols were too far apart.
Since 1998

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Randy Williams –
But once the text had 2 or more characters, I envisioned the "circle" being a rectangle, but with the "square bracket" on the right and left ends being replaced by a "half circle".  Does this make any more sense now?
No. A style of: 'Circled' needs to be circled. I don't want NWC converting it to something else, just because it thinks I'm trying to do something stupid. It could be that Style:'Rounded' or Style:'Ellipse' might be useful, but I don't recall seeing them in music.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
A style of: 'Circled' needs to be circled. I don't want NWC converting it to something else, just because it thinks I'm trying to do something stupid. It could be that Style:'Rounded' or Style:'Ellipse' might be useful, but I don't recall seeing them in music.

I have a copy of Schoenberg's Pierrot Lunaire (Universal Edition, undated) that has circled measure numbers every five measures in lieu of rehearsal letters. All of them are ellipses except the 5s. Sample page attached.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #18 –
An ellipse certainly makes more sense, but I can also see Rick's point - If I specify something, I DON'T want some overly smart piece of software "correcting" me.  E.G. m$ Word...

Generally, I simply use a letter from one of my suites, that have a box drawn around them.  There is also facility to create an elongated box with "unboxed" letters, as well as numbers 'n stuff, a la boxmarks
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #19 –
NWC does indeed continue with pure circles for circled bar numbers, apparently no matter how high the numbers get.  For 4-digit bar numbers, the circle is touching the top line of the staff.  For 5-digit bar numbers, the circle dips down into the staff.  Of course, I doubt many pieces will make 4 digits for number of bars, let alone 5 or more (1812 is only 422 measures).  I just thought that if rehearsal letters were completely opened up to the user to type in as many characters as they want to, there would have to be some point at which the circle was "rounded" out, or else some limit on the number of characters would need to be enforced, or else the program would have to handle drawing circles where part of the circle was well down into the staff below, and well up into the staff above, and even off the page/screen entirely.  It can be that the user gets what he asks for, but it can't be that the program can be blown up by absurd usage.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
An ellipse certainly makes more sense, but I can also see Rick's point - If I specify something, I DON'T want some overly smart piece of software "correcting" me.  E.G. m$ Word...

Amen, brother Lawrie. I hate software that tries to think for me. I was just trying to make the point that there is published music out there that uses ellipses in place of circles. Rick has caught me in plenty of categorical statements that didn't turn out to be true in the past, and will undoubtedly continue to catch me in the future. So I couldn't resist the temptation to catch him in one. (Sorry, Rick.)

I also use either your one of your *dings suites or Boxmarks for rehearsal letters. Since I place them by hand anyway (rather than every x number of measures), using text to place them has never felt like a great hardship. That said, I would welcome a rehearsal letter that was an attribute of the barline, with style set at the users' discretion - although, to be completely useful, its position would also have to be adjustable up, down, left, and right, to weasel it around other elements of the score.

Bill

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
<snip>
That said, I would welcome a rehearsal letter that was an attribute of the barline, with style set at the users' discretion - although, to be completely useful, its position would also have to be adjustable up, down, left, and right, to weasel it around other elements of the score.

Which is why I don't consider placing rehearsal marks as text a hardship.

A practical example:
A rehearsal mark is attached to the barline at the start of bar, say, 17.  This barline is actually drawn at the end of bar 16 which, for the sake of argument, is at the end of a system.  If the rehearsal mark is an attribute of the barline where will it end up?  It SHOULD be at the start of the next system, but as the barline is at the end of the previous system guess where it would probably end up?

I'm sure this could be coded around but I'm not really a fan of automagic rehearsal marks anyhow.

Now, what I'd REALLY like is to be able to control the placement of bar numbers - I would like to be able to put them UNDER the barline instead of on top, and I'd like the option of numbering EVERY barline in the printout.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #22 –
Lawrie:


Perhaps also software that extracts the Reheasal Marks and Segnos et al. to each part instead of applying them to each staff.



Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #23 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
A rehearsal mark is attached to the barline at the start of bar, say, 17.  This barline is actually drawn at the end of bar 16 which, for the sake of argument, is at the end of a system.  If the rehearsal mark is an attribute of the barline where will it end up?  It SHOULD be at the start of the next system, but as the barline is at the end of the previous system guess where it would probably end up?

Yeah, I thought of that, too. There would have to be an "at start of next system" property check box, although you might be able to kludge it with a hidden barline. That would depend on how it was coded. Probably not worth the trouble. The advantage of native rehearsal letters would be the ability to use a goto to hop immediately to the section of the music you wanted, but you can get that effect by putting the rehearsal numbers on a separate layered staff, which I have been known to do. That also helps when separating parts out.

Better control of measure numbers would be nice. Better control of articulations would be even nicer.

Bill

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #24 –
G'day Barry,
not quite...  I like the bar numbers to be smaller and immediately under the barline, not in the middle of the bar.

Automatic extraction of rehearsal marks etc. would be nice, but my work around for that is to use a "Lyrics" staff that has all those additional objects which is then layered with the staff of interest.

Of course, one must still contend with putting flow controls on every staff but I don't actually find this particularly burdensome.

I DO like to have articulations outside the staff as in your example.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #25 –
G'day Bill,
umm, yup.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #26 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
It could be that [...] Style:'Ellipse' might be useful, but I don't recall seeing them in music.
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Rick has caught me in plenty of categorical statements that didn't turn out to be true in the past, and will undoubtedly continue to catch me in the future. So I couldn't resist the temptation to catch him in one.
Now that I have viewed your attachment, I can say that I have seen elliptical text decoration in music. Thanks.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #27 –
Quote
Since I place them by hand anyway (rather than every x number of measures), using text to place them has never felt like a great hardship.

That said, I would welcome a rehearsal letter that was an attribute of the barline, with style set at the users' discretion -

Agreed. 

I hadn't thought of NWC creating an automatic letter in sequence.  I don't think I want that.  I would like it to set the attribute of a bar line to be "rehearsal letter" and then open a dialogue box where I could enter the particular letter.  Presumably I would set the style of the letter in the first rehearsal letter, so those choices would be grayed out in all rehearsal letter bar lines after the first one.  Visibility should always be "top system only."  I don't care about the shape of the frame around the letter, although I admit to being very used to, and comfortable with, the way Lawrie's font produces them.


Quote
although, to be completely useful, its position would also have to be adjustable up, down, left, and right, to weasel it around other elements of the score.


For the last bar line in a system, the rehearsal letters should leave that bar line behind, and move to the beginning of the first bar in the next system. 

I would like bar numbers to be printable at the beginnig of every bar, not just the beginning of the staff.  The font should be very small, i.e. size 6 or 5.  It would be nice to be able to choose whether to locate them above or below the staff, but they should always be centred or left justified at the bar line, or for the first bar of a system,  at the left end of the system.

Re: Rehearsal letters?

Reply #28 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Visibility should always be "top system only."
Might be a reasonable default, but I've have scores where the marks are repeated mid-page. IMO, it is arbitrary to restrict the visibility of objects.
Registered user since 1996