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Topic: "foreign" characters disappear (Read 18284 times) previous topic - next topic

"foreign" characters disappear
I can enter Swedish text in the Lyrics dialog (äåö), but as soon as I close the dialog, the diacritics disappear -- they show up neither in the score nor in the Lyrics dialog when I reopen it.

I'm running NWC 2.0 on WinXP SP3.

Thanks!

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #1
The characters in your post work for me. (see attachment)

It could be that in the font you are using, those characters are Unicode. NoteWorthy does not support Unicode.
One way to tell if a chracter is Unicode only is to paste it into NotePad. If you try to save it as Encoding:ANSI, NotePad will warn you about losing characters.
Registered user since 1996

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #2
I can enter Swedish text in the Lyrics dialog (äåö), but as soon as I close the dialog, the diacritics disappear
Check out my font suites here:
http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/uc/pardypack/
or here:
http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Fonts

In each suite there is a font called *TextEuro.ttf where the * is the name of the suite.  These fonts include characters with diacritics that will function correctly in the NWC environment.

There are uasge documents included as PDF's that have character tables.  The first site above has these documents available outside the ZIP files that contain the suites so you can see the available characters.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - gonna lern tubies next

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #3
Vpxistqaosani, if you're using a Swedish keyboard, the characters äåöìÄÅ and Ö on your keyboard are not found on North American keyboards, so you're just entering white space.  If you can't find a font from Lawrie that solves your problem, try entering the extended Svensk alphabet characters using your Alt key and your number pad:

  • ä
  Alt and 132

  • å
  Alt and 134

  • ö
  Alt and 148

  • Ä
  Alt and 142

  • Å
  Alt and 143


  • Ö
  Alt and 153
[/list]

This is, of course, just if you can't find what you need in Lawrie's files.

Hey då!

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #4
The lyric edit boxes are actually implemented as standard Windows controls. NWC does not implement the keyboard or mouse behavior in these controls. The keyboard and mouse behavior is entirely under the control of Windows, although we certainly could add things if necessary.
On systems that support Unicode, Unicode characters can be entered into the Lyrics Editor. NoteWorthy does not support Unicode. When you close the Lyrics Editor, NoteWorthy translates Unicode characters into a question mark and the Unicode input is lost.

IMO, this is not hardware issue. All keyboards are pretty much alike. Changing the keycaps does not change the make/break codes that they generate. Software accounts for the differences that the user sees.
Registered user since 1996

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #5

Quote
On systems that support Unicode, Unicode characters can be entered into the Lyrics Editor. NoteWorthy does not support Unicode. When you close the Lyrics Editor, NoteWorthy translates Unicode characters into a question mark and the Unicode input is lost.

I don't know if the ASCII characters are Unicode or not, but NWC 2.1 does accept them.  See the attached PNG file, which shows the printed output from an NWC 2.1 file where I typed  ä å ö Ö Ä Å in the Lyric Editor.

Quote
IMO, this is not hardware issue. All keyboards are pretty much alike. Changing the keycaps does not change the make/break codes that they generate. Software accounts for the differences that the user sees.

I disagree that keyboards are pretty much alike.  You just have to compare your PC keyboard to the keyboard on a laptop to see that various keys, the non-alphabet keys in particular, are placed in different locations and are different sizes and shapes. 

The software that tells the computer how to interpret keystrokes has to be configured to handle the different hardware.

Take it another step now, and look at keyboards for languages other than English.  French keyboards have to have the c with  a cedilla and accented e and a characters.  I vaguely recall having to make sure the right code page was set up when setting up computers back in DOS days; I think that was why.

The Swedish alphabet has three more letters than the English alphabet, so their computer keyboards have to accommodate that.  I have used Swedish computers a couple of times, most recently when I was over there in 2004, and the keyboard layouts are different than they are in North America.  If I recall correctly, two or three of these characters are below the k/K, l/L and ;/: keys or perhaps further down, where we would encounter our Alt,
Windows or Control keys for the right hand.  If NWC doesn't recognize them because they don't generate the right code, I would call that a hardware issue, but if it's actually software, I can live with that.. 

However, there is almost always a workaround, and here is it simply to use the ASCII characters.  ANSI can be used too, but I seldom remember the four digit code because three digits work fine for what I need.


Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #6
David, now are many years that all keyboards (computer keyboards) are made equal. Some have special keys added, for example volume control, but the rest is identical.
As Rick wrote, the only "hardware" difference is in the keycaps.
All the rest is software.

As I already wrote, if you type "alt" 0xxx (with a leading '0') the the code is ANSI, otherwise it's OEM.
Since NWC is not Unicode, windows, as Rick wrote, translates it to its "locale".
If the windows "locale" doesn't support such characters, windows uses the most similar ones.

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #7
Quote
now are many years that all keyboards (computer keyboards) are made equal. Some have special keys added, for example volume control, but the rest is identical.
I disagree firstly that the physical characteristics of all modern keyboards are the same.  My laptop's keyboard isn't the same size or shape as my Microsoft Natural k/b, which in turn is a different size and shape from the standard QWERTY keyboard I would buy with a OC desktop today.  Physically they are not equal.

Quote
All the rest is software.
There used to be two types of software -systems software and application software.  NWC2.1 is an application.  The software used by your operating system to interpret the keyboard commands is what I understand to be system software, and so it your operating system. These would typically be OEM, I agree.  

This keyboard has the Swedish characters where my q, w and e are on my Qwerty keyboard.
http://www.gate2home.com/?language=sv

Here's another Swedish (this time virtual) keyboard:
http://frontype.com/keyboard/Swedish-keyboard-layout.html


This site http://jonasmartinsson.50webs.com/keyboard/index.htm shows the absence of a Control key.

Unless I misremember code pages, when you press a particular key, it sends a command to the CPU which will interpret it according to its code page - which is probably hard coded into the motherboard.  Systems software will tell the CPU what command to send to the application and to your screen. If the software says the key will produce a semicolon, it will.  On the other hand, if the system software says it will be ä, å or ö, that's what the CPU will understand and pass on to the screen and to the particular application software in use.

The label on the key is only significant in that it tells you what the character is that that key will produce when activated. 

If our Swedish friend uses a Swedish keyboard and presses a key that he expects NWC will interpret as a Swedish character, NWC won't because NWC is not programmed to recognize the command it gets from the CPU.  So he must use the ASCII or the ANSI codes.  Either seems to work.

I'm not sure, but I think I've argued myself into agreeing with you.  That's a good thing, eh?

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #8
FWIW, the keyboard just sends scan codes.  The BIOS forwards these to the OS which does the language interpretation...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - gonna lern tubies next

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #9
I disagree firstly that the physical characteristics of all modern keyboards are the same.

Oh, yes!
One is black, another is cream, another is transparent...
Some are curved, many are straight...
Some have feet to slant them, other have not...
Some have a differently shaped "return" key...
Some have an "alt graph" key, some not...
Some have two "ctrl" keys, some just one...
The original PS2 keyboard didn't have the "windows" and the local menu keys...
The laptops have keyboards that make me in the mood of kicking them...
Some are USB, others are PS2, others wireless...

Yes, all these are hardware (physical) differences, but nothing really significant.
You can plug whatever keyboard in whatever computer and it works.

Quote
when you press a particular key, it sends a command to the CPU which will interpret it according to its code page - which is probably hard coded into the motherboard.

The commands sent are something like: "pressed key 22", "pressed key 35", "released key 35", "released key 22". (Uh, no velocity info? ;-)
What "key 22" means is completely under firmware/software control.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scancode

What's hard coded into the motherboard (more precisely, in the BIOS) is the old IBM codepage that's used by the BIOS itself.
What happens once an operating system is loaded is completely under OS control.
Do you remember the venerable DOS "KEYB.COM" drivers and "*.CPI" screen codepages?
Probably not, for you didn't need them or, lucky you, you're too young.

Quote
The label on the key is only significant in that it tells you what the character is that that key will produce when activated.

I assume you're using a standard (U.S.) keyboard so you don't have that small blue square, typically in the left part of the windows' instruments bar, telling you what keyboard layout you're using in that moment.
Please look in the control panel->international settings->language->details->settings->preferences->language bar->show language bar on desktop.

I'm using an Italian layout keyboard, so it indicates "IT" most of the time.
Using some programs, or if I ask the system to change layout by clicking on it, the keyboard layout changes following the language indicated: "EN", "FR", "DE"...
Of course, that's only virtual: I have to go by memory for the keycaps don't change!
Try by switching to a French or German keyboard, in which not only the "odd" chars key change places but also some letters swap. (Do you remember "QWERTY" and "QZERTY"?)
That's all under software (usually OS) control.

Now look in "control panel->international settings->advanced->select a language for non-unicode programs" and also "code-pages conversion tables" and can have an idea of the big mess was (and somehow still largely is) before the adoption of the unicode!

After all, the computer was (more or less) born in America and so it used ASCII (American Standard Code for Information Interchange) not needing accents, diacritical signs and other oddities.

Then should we speak about Greec and Russian?
Even worse: Arabic, and Hebrew?
Worse again: Chinese and other oriental languages?

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #10
If Notewothy does not support Unicode, then characters above ASCII 255/ANSI 0255 cannot be used.  Many of the Windows standard fonts are in fact, Open Type, which hold the full Unicode mapping.  If you use a True-type font for the lyrics which does not contain characters over 255 *and* contains the Nordic-specific characters, then the printout should be correct.  You can see which characters the font contains by using the Windows Character Map (start-run type in CHARMAP hit enter)  Select the font and select Windows (Western).  If the required Nordic characters are not there, choose another font.  Holding the mouse over a character will give its code in hexadecimal.  The Windows Calculator (calc.exe) in Scientific mode will enable you to convert this to a decimal value which can then be entered with the ALT key plus zero and the decimal number (if you are using an English keyboard).  If you are using a Swedish keyboard, the standard keystroke for that character should display it.

Please post back if you have any queries, or woud like more information.

Bob

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #11
...If you use a True-type font for the lyrics which does not contain characters over 255 *and* contains the Nordic-specific characters, then the printout should be correct.

This is exactly how the *TextEuro fonts in my suites work...  There are even diacriticals positioned such that if I don't have the particular required combination as a single character then by entering the required base character followed by the required diacritical it should look pretty good, and simply requires two characters to give the appearance of one.

The possibilities within the fonts are not exhaustive, but I believe I got the most common ones.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - gonna lern tubies next

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #12
Quote
ALT key plus zero and the decimal number (if you are using an English keyboard)

With any keyboard and/for you must use the numeric keypad to enter the code.

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #13
Thanks, Flurmy for clarifying that it is the numeric keypad which must be used with ALT to enter the ASCII/ANSI code.  You know what they say about familiarity ....... !!

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #14
A deeper question is:

Should NWC drop support for the Win95/Win98/Win2000(?) family (for which Unicode is not available), to become a Unicode aware application?

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #15
Should NWC drop support for the Win95/Win98/Win2000(?) family (for which Unicode is not available), to become a Unicode aware application?

You can get limited Unicode support in Win 95+, but it is more complicated than on XP+. However, we are considering targeting XP+ for future evolution, largely because of its expanded technical opportunities and efficiencies.

As I have indicated before, we have been working on a Unicode migration plan for NWC. Details will initially be available in the form of a preview/beta release.

Re: "foreign" characters disappear
Reply #16

As I have indicated before, we have been working on a Unicode migration plan for NWC. Details will initially be available in the form of a preview/beta release.

That would be very useful indeed.