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Topic: NWC2 Dynamic Variance (Read 10536 times) previous topic - next topic

NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Hi !
Can NWC2 apply a Dynamic Variance to a single note?
Thanks, in advance.
Robert.

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #1 –
Yes,  but not all sound set ups will support it.

Give the attached sample file a try to see if yours will.

The sound should decay.

Rich.

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #2 –
G'day Robert,
welcome to the forum.

The easy answer is no.  The dynamic variances, by default, affect "velocity", which, of course, is applied at note commencement only.

However, it is possible to achieve much the same thing using an expression or a volume MPC (Multi Point Controller)

For these to work, it is necessary to set the stage.  If you want to use expression to increase sound level then you need to have set expression to a value below "full" earlier in the work.  The same applies if you want to use volume except you can set the staff volume as a staff property instead of needing to use an initial MPC as you would for the expression method.

It is also possible to set volume as a property of a preceding dynamic.  You can override default values in dynamics - adjusting both velocity and volume parameters..

There are two really good documents on this subject in the helpful files section on the Scriptorium:
http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Explanations
Look for:
"MPC Guide" and "Dynamics.pdf"
These were written by the late Tina Billett and are excellent references.

One important thing to note is that your sound card/synth must support these controls.  Most modern ones do.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #3 –
Thanks, folks! My sound card does support this functionality. All I need now is to find by study spectacles!!
Best Wishes,
Robert.
 

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #4 –
You can also crescendo on one note: check the attachment here.  As Lawrie pointed out, you can change the note velocity to the max (127) while varying note volume after selecting a dynamic and doing Cntl/E.  On the Scriptorium, the Vierne Kyrie and Meditation from Thais both use this technique.

HTH
Since 1998

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #5 –
What's the difference between these two MPCs?

   ...  MPC-Expression

   ...  MPC-Volume


They both seem to be used to control crescendo/diminuendo dynamics on held notes.  How do they work differently?

I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere in NWC, but I couldn't find it.  (Web searches on "MIDI Expression" pull up Wah-Wah pedals.)

Joe



Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #6 –
Hi Joe, glad to see you here, where it is so much easier to discuss things, as opposed to the newsgroup.
Quote from: Joseph Roberts –
What's the difference between these two MPCs?
Nothing, except their names and conventional usage, including Noteworthy's conventional usage.
http://www.midi.org/techspecs/gmguide2.pdf
I would refer you to Page 10, which is the 14th page of the pdf.
If you do the math from the tables, you will find that if you swap the values for volume and expression, the net result is the same.

Their recommendation is that Volume remain constant during playback and that expression (along with velocity) be used for dynamics. They imply that NWC should use 'Change Channel Expression' rather than 'Change Channel Volume'. NWC's hairpins and Dynamic Variances should look for Expression settings, rather than Volume settings.

I am agnostic on the subject, except to say that their recommendation that 'Volume remain constant during playback' allows the user to change the inital Volume setting to bring out a specific channel during playback.
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #7 –
I haven't thought of MPCs for  while, but seeing this, it occurs to me that perhaps when we reach NWC 2.2 or 3, Eric would consider adding fp as a dynamic, which could be done with MPC. 

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #8 –
Perhaps if you would explain in a separate topic what fp should do, we could arrive at a consensus and get it implemented. How fast is the transition from forte to piano, and does it depend the duration of the note to which it is attached? You might also wish to discuss whether it makes any difference if the currently running dynamic is piano or fortissimo.
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Rick G. –

...
Their recommendation is that Volume remain constant during playback and that expression (along with velocity) be used for dynamics. They imply that NWC should use 'Change Channel Expression' rather than 'Change Channel Volume'. NWC's hairpins and Dynamic Variances should look for Expression settings, rather than Volume settings.

I am agnostic on the subject, except to say that their recommendation that 'Volume remain constant during playback' allows the user to change the initial Volume setting to bring out a specific channel during playback.


That was valuable advice, Rick ... Many thanks for it.

It tests well here with the Audigy 2. 

   ...  Set two staves, the first with Channel Volume=127 and the second with Volume=32 (say).

   ...  Identical patch (say, Clarinet) and starting dynamic (say, 'f') in each.

   ...  Identical continuous, tied note through several bars.

   ...  Identical Expression MPC, say from 20 to 127.

The Expression swell to 127 is louder in the first staff than in the second (as would be expected).

It's so much easier than doing it with MPC-Volume, because with the MPC-Expression one doesn't have to reset the volume after the swell.

I wish I had known about it years ago (or thought to ask).  Many thanks again.

Joe

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #10 –
The reason I and others use Expression (via MPCs in NWC) rather than Volume to control dynamics is to keep dynamic changes within a track proportional bo matter what the overall volume of that track is relative to the overall volume of the other tracks.

Different synths produce different relative balance of volume between tracks, therefore it is desireable to use Volume once at the beginning of the track (in NWC adjust it in Staff Properties rather than adding a Volume MPC) and use it as one uses the Volume or Gain controls on the channels of a multi-track mixing board.  If Expression MPCs are used for dynamic changes, then the dynamic levels increase or decrease proportionally with the overall track Volume setting.  If Volume is used for dynamics, to adjust the overall track volume, one would have to adjust the volume setting of each individual dynamic change.  Otherwise one might try to cut the initial track volume setting by, say, 25%, but at the first dynamic change the volume will revert to the previous levels for the rest of the track.

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #11 –
All that has been said in this topic re the advantages of the expression MPC over the volume MPC is probably true, but it is also true that some soundcards don't support the expression MPC. I had one of those when I started using NWC, and though my current card supports both, I am now in the habit of using volume MPCs for dynamic control and am not likely to change. You do have to reset staff volume following any swell or fade, but that gets automatic after a while (an additional MPC isn't necessary; just change the properties of the next dynamic). The tradeoff for this extra bit of work is slightly (admittedly, only slightly) tighter control over what the dynamics are actually doing to the sound.

Bill

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #12 –
Loosely based on the sample file: voltest.nwc, the attachment will test your system's response to the expression controller.
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #13 –
To Folks following this Dynamic Variance thread ...

I posted a reply to a message here in this thread, but it got steered into a new topic with the same title.

Apparently it happened through a login timeout.  The login worked, and the message was posted, but this original thread connection was lost when the message was posted.

If you see the message in another thread, please feel free to reply to it here in this original thread, rather than splitting the topic into separate threads.

Joe


Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #14 –
Long question.

Would anyone have a view about whether modern and future audio hardware continues to support the Expression MPC?

   ... Suppose a person notating today in NWC wanted to put a work up on the Scriptorium.  A major concern would be whether it can be played back with reasonable accuracy through a majority population of contemporary audio hardware/software.

No point in using Expression-MPCs, if they can't be heard.

- - -

Can it be safely assumed that today's PC "state-of-the-art" (sic) supports the Expression MPC?

Illustration ...

Seems like centuries ago.  In less than ten years, this local audio setup went:

   ...  Pentium, Crystal Audio, built-in wavetable.
   ...  Pentium II, 350 MHz, Sound Blaster AWE-32 (ISA), 8MB soundbanks.
   ...  Pentium III, 800 MHz, Sound Blaster PCI-128, Yamaha XG Synth.
   ...  Pentium 4, 3.4 Ghz, Audigy 2, variety of soundbanks.

Not meaning to dwell on this, but that's four configurations in less than ten years.  The goal was to get more "realistic" music from the PC.  It's just meant to illustrate one local case, among many cases, of how rapidly PC technology moves on.

I can't possibly recall whether "Expression MPCs" might have worked, or not, in those old configurations.  They do work in the current one, the last one mentioned above.

What about the future?  Can it be assumed that Expression MPCs will be standard and supported?

If a person scores Expression MPCs in NWC, is it 'safe' to expect them to be heard?  Or should something else be used instead?

Joe

NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #15 –
I think support of expression MPCs is pretty standard these days. My experience with the expression-deficient card was a long time ago. I suspect (without actually knowing) that it is only occasional backward compatibility that you would have to worry about...and that isn't a very big worry in this case.

By the way, in case anyone is wondering: I no longer remember the card manufacturer - if I ever knew it. The computer was a low-end Paradigm, which was the house brand of the Future Shop chain of electronics stores, which no longer exists (at least in the US), and I suspect they simply used the cheapest sound card available - probably different cards in different manufacturing runs of the same model.

I think you can use the expression MPC freely, without fear that it will be a problem for (almost) anyone.

Cheers,

Bill

(moved here at Joseph's request)

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Joseph Roberts –
Can it be safely assumed that today's PC "state-of-the-art" (sic) supports the Expression MPC?
Can it be assumed that Expression MPCs will be standard and supported?
If a person scores Expression MPCs in NWC, is it 'safe' to expect them to be heard?  
Yes, Yes and Yes.

I doubt that there has been a computer with MIDI capability made in the last 10 years that lacks support for the expression controller. It is required for GM2 and GM2 has been around for a long time. That's why I created the test file. I would be very surprised if anyone running Win2000 or better has a MIDI subsystem that won't support it.

Win98 can be squeezed into very old boxes, but I just bought a "refurb" for $150USD that runs WinXP Pro like a top.
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #17 –
Quote
The computer was a low-end Paradigm, which was the house brand of the Future Shop chain of electronics stores, which no longer exists (at least in the US),

Future Shop is alive and well in Canada, where it started. 

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #18 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Future Shop is alive and well in Canada, where it started. 

Thought that might be the case, David - that's why I added the parenthetical expression at the end. Thanks for confirming it. Future Shop was my favorite local toystore when we had one here.

Bill

Re: NWC2 Dynamic Variance

Reply #19 –
They compete with Best Buy, believe it or not.  The difference in the two chains is the way they sell things.  FS pays salespeople by commission, but BB doesn't, if I recall the TV ads.  In my community, there's at least one shopping centre with both FS and BB across the parking lot from each other.