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MIDI Delay - Windows XP

I have been noticing a strange behavior of Noteworthy for several months now related to MIDI.  At times, there is a delay between pushing [Enter] to place a note and when the note sounds.  The delay is maybe about a half a second.  Just enough to be annoying.  I can consistently fix the problem by just going to Tools/Options/MIDI and pressing [Ok].  Instantly, everything starts working with no delay.  I am using the Microsoft MIDI Mapper as the playback device.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #1 –
I don't know if this sheds any more light on the issue...  I have been working on the same piece for a while today.  The MIDI delay happened, and I reset it.  I then stepped away to eat a bite of lunch.  When I came back, I manipulated the score a bit again, and the MIDI was again delaying.  Nothing else happened with the computer.  Again, I fixed the issue by the same method as above.  Noteworthy was running all the time with the same score open.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #2 –
It could be your settings in Tools/Options/Midi - I use B: SBLive! Midi Synth and SBLive! MIDI UART.  Whatever those are.

If it's not that, I suspect it's your sound card driver.  For me, the sound on the note entry is instantaneous, and if I rapidly tap in a bunch of 8th notes, the sound will come before the string of notes shows on the screen.

<< Edit:  Check to see if your Start Countdown setting in Tools/Options/Midi  is greater than 0.  When I was looking at it earlier today while preparing the above comment, I reset it from 0 to 12.  Now opening a file to work on, the playback wasn't working.  Turns out it was the new Start Countdown number.  When I reset it to zero, everything was fine again. Maybe it does the same thing to note entry.>>

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #3 –
Quote from: dripley –
When I came back, I manipulated the score a bit again, and the MIDI was again delaying.
This may be a low memory problem. Does your drive light flash as you enter notes? If so, your system may be swapping memory out to disk. It could be that "going to Tools/Options/MIDI and pressing [Ok]", compacts the Undo buffer and makes disk swapping unnecessary.

I do not have this problem in XP even though I have only 256Mb of RAM. OTOH, I use a hardware synth. If you are using a software synth, it may be the culprit.

Try opening XP's Task Manager. You might be able to diagnose the problem by looking at the processor and memory useage in the 'Performance' Tab.
Registered user since 1996

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #4 –
Rick makes a good suggestion.

IMHO the bare minimum RAM for XP is 512 MB, however I'd prefer to see 2 GB - these days we won't sell a PC with less than 2GB - if it's vista then 4GB is the minimum (and the maximum for 32 bit).

HDD's should also be at least 7200 RPM if possible (most are these days).
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
IMHO the bare minimum RAM for XP is 512 MB
I agree. I get by by editing my start-up configuation to run only those tasks that I really need.

Compared to most programs, NWC2 is a real memory miser. All the NWC2 sample files play without popping, dropouts or rythmic distortion.
Registered user since 1996

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #6 –
I also suspect a low memory problem. My first guess would be a full disk cache. This is sometimes the result of a cache setting that is too small, but in my experience it is more often the result of a habit of never turning off the computer. Windows needs to power down occasionally in order to clear the cache - otherwise it just fills up. When it is full, the system clears itself just enough space for minimal operation - it never empties the whole thing. This slows the computer's operation down in a very noticable manner.

If you are running on a laptop and are just closing the lid when you're done for the day - not powering down - this is almost certainly your problem. Closing the lid just hibernates the computer, rather than turning it off. The advantage is that you get a quick start next time. Among the disadvantages is a very full cache that slows the system 'way, 'way down.

When you go away for lunch, your computer will go onto screen saver. For reasons I have never figured out, this also can fill up the cache. If there wasn't much room to begin with (if the cache is very small, or if the system has only cleared a minimal amount from a full cache), when you get back and pop it out of screen saver, everything will run slow again - causing the symptoms you describe. It is probable that when NWC changes its MIDI settings it clears a bit of headroom for operation. That would be why clicking OK on the MIDI tab sped things up again.

Try a full system reset (not just a hibernation) and see what happens.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #7 –
I have a little program called "EndItAll" installed on my PC. It closes all unnecessary programs which would otherwise be running in the background and taking up PC resources; this can be very effective in improving your PC's performance.
Tony. 

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #8 –
The computer is a 3.4 GHz Pentium 4 with 3.5 Gigabytes of RAM.  Noteworthy is the only application open...so system limitations are not the likely culprit.  The hard drives are on SATA on a RAID array, thus disc access issues are also not likely, nor does the disc light flash on the machine when entering the notes.  I also do audio editing on the machine, so I have pretty good faith in the sound card subsystem.

I could be inclined to blame lots of external influences, except that pressing [Ok] on the Noteworthy MIDI configuration screen SOLVES the problem 100%.  This is not a problem that happens constantly...and the solution is known (though the problem will recur).
It would be helpful to know what Noteworthy does when the [Ok] button is pressed as I described in my initial post.

I know that it would be helpful if I could define exactly how to re-duplicate the situation, and I may yet be able to do this, though I don't have that figured out at this point.

Thanks for all the thoughts...

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #9 –
G'day dripley,
from the spec. your machine is more than capable of keeping up I would think...  :)

So, as an experiment, do you have a synth other than the microsoft GS wavetable available?  (the ms GS is the synth normally associated with MIDI mapper unless you have changed it (not possible without a registry hack on vista)).  Also try the ms GS wavetable directly instead of via the MIDI mapper.  Also, does your sound card have a hardware synth associated with it?  Or perhaps you have access to a VST solution etc..

Where I'm heading with this is to try and identify if the problem only associates with:
a) using the MIDI mapper
b) the ms GS wavetable synth
c) other softsynths
d) hardware synths

The idea is to narrow down where we need to look for the cause.

If you are short of synth's to try and are running XP, this post might help... https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5115.msg32818#msg32818
OR better still, go here on the Scripto for a very basic VST option: http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful/vstfdum.pdf

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #10 –
I want to focus on your second post for a moment. The program was behaving itself; you went away for lunch; you came back; the program was misbehaving. Therefore something happened while "nothing" was happening. What other processes were running during that time? You had no other apps open in windows; what might have been open without a window? Anything in the system tray? Anything hidden (such as a scanner app that watches to see when you might need it)? Could you have picked up a virus? A check to see what processes and services are running when "nothing" is running might be in order here. As you are no doubt aware, Windows normally only shows the user a fraction of what it is doing at any given time; a lot of stuff is running below the radar. Since your problem developed at least once while you were away from your machine, I would strongly suspect that some of that hidden overhead is to blame.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #11 –
I have been working with Noteworthy more, and trying to watch for the delay behavior to start again.  The program starts fine, with no delay.  I have even tried to re-create the issue by having large number of staves, etc., with no luck.  Tonight I decided that the problem was never going to happen again, as I had been working for a long time with no problems.  Well...  I stepped away for some dinner, and when I came back DELAY!  I closed Noteworthy, and restarted it...no delay again.  (I figured I might as well try something different than pressing [Ok] on the MIDI settings screen.)

I am not running a screen saver (Screensaver setting [None]).  I am running a small email checking program (Mailbell by EmTec) that plays a sound when email comes in, but that is going (and sounding) when I am using Noteworthy normally also.  I am using a desktop system with most of the energy saving features disabled.  I do have the "Turn off hard disks after 1 hour" feature enabled.  Standby and hibernate are disabled.  The OS is Windows XP.  I am running an anti-virus, NOD32, which is the least obtrusive that I have found.

As a test, I just sent myself an email, and Mailbell diligently notified me of the mail.  Noteworthy continued to work fine without any delay.

Thanks for all the comments.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #12 –
Quote from: dripley –
<snip> Well...  I stepped away for some dinner, and when I came back DELAY!

<snip> I do have the "Turn off hard disks after 1 hour" feature enabled.

Might it have taken an hour to have dinner?  Perhaps Windoze is doing something unexpected here...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #13 –
An excellent idea...especially since it seems illogical!  (Those are often the best places to look for solutions as they are often overlooked.)  I therefore simply disabled the feature.  Unfortunately, the problem happened again.  This time, I simply had Noteworthy open, no score or anything, left it alone for a while, and when I started the score, the delay was there.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #14 –
This time, after the delay was happening, I tried playing the song.  The significant delay (almost a second) was there during playback.  I then stopped the playback and restarted it...and the delay was gone.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #16 –
Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #17 –

"Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth."

Aha!  With this mediocre-sounding softsynth being the only available playback device, NWC no doubt hesitates to play, fearing it will be judged mediocre as well!  ;)

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #18 –
G'day dripley,
Quote from: dripley –
Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth.
That's a softsynth - may explain a few things given that it requires the CPU to do the necessary work...  I can't say I've had the particular experience you're having, but then I don't use that synth either, which may or may not be relevant.  I DO normally use a Yamaha softsynth and don't recall having a similar problem.  Do you have any other synths in your machine that you can try?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #19 –
And now a serious (though not grim) question:

Re-reading your previous comments makes me unsure whether you are describing:

1. A delay in playback beginning when F5 is pressed (or Play is clicked), after which the notes sound in sync with the note chase with no delay (latency - usually about half a second for softsynths, just as you mentioned noticing), this occurring when F5 or Play are called after NWC has sat open and idle for some period of time, or...

2. Notes sound in sync with note chase the first time F5 or Play is called after NWC is opened, but after NWC has sat open and idle for some period of time, the sound lags behind the note chase all through playback.

If scenario #1 is the case, this is likely normal behavior.  My guess (and it is only a guess) is that the MIDI parameters for the piece have been pushed out of RAM and NWC must load them again on playback after an idle period.  Scenario #2 seems less likely, that the softsynth would display latency after being idle, but not on first playing a file.  Again, only a guess, but could your system be placing MIDI processing and/or digital-analog conversion on a lower-priority processing thread after an idle period?

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #20 –
To clarify the situation.  There is a delay after the program sits idle for a period of time.  The delay affects note entry (pressing enter on the staff) or playback.  In all cases, the problem is cured by one of the methods described above.

I am trying a bunch of different things at this point.  I'll post back with what happens.  Thanks for all the suggestions!

P.S.  Thank you Lawrie for all of the documentation you have done on VST setup, etc.  You have created some great resources.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #21 –
When you open the Tools->Options-Midi page, then press OK, this causes the MIDI device to be released and then reclaimed. Closing and re-opening NWC would also do this. If you set Port Usage to While Active, any change of application focus will trigger NWC to release the MIDI device, then reclaim it when you return to NWC.

For whatever reason, the GS Wavetable Synth (a software synth) virtual device on your system must get "stale" after some period of time. Do you have any other software running that might also be using the MIDI device? Do you see much Page File usage in the Windows Task Manager Performance tab? Processor usage?

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #22 –
I was reading over your previous posts, and this leaped out at me:

Quote from: dripley –
I also do audio editing on the machine, so I have pretty good faith in the sound card subsystem.

Question: does the NWC problem always occur when you leave the program idle for a while, or only late in a session at the computer, when you might have been doing something else earlier in the day? My thought here is that something that makes very heavy use of the sound card (such as an audio editor) might be leaving a loose process or two running when you close it down, and that those processes might be hijacking the audio card when it is left idle. In that case, setting Port Usage to "While Active," as Eric suggests, should fix the problem.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #23 –
I ended up finding success with an alternate soft synth that Lawrie had referred to that works with XP.  Thanks to everyone for their helpful comments.

Re: MIDI Delay - Windows XP

Reply #24 –
I bet you have the Windows power save set on for your sound card/peripherals.

It hibernates while you are away - and wakes up when you resume (with delay).