Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Section break extends system (Read 8497 times) previous topic - next topic

Section break extends system

I write some scores which have a large number of short sections (e.g. choral responses for use in church), and would like to be able to start a new system without the previous one becoming strangely elongated to the right margin.

Some years ago I made a suggestion that the system break should optionally extend the system to the right margin, or else finish in the middle of the line as it would naturally at the end of the whole piece. In other words, a similar control to the "extend last system" option.

I hoped this would be included in v2 but apparently hasn't.  NWC people, is there any plan to do this?
Is there any clever way round this problem people have found?

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #1 –
One way to do this is to notate your separate short scores as separate staves (or groups of staves) in a single multistave score. Adjust the staff spacing to create plenty of white space between each group. This will give you something that looks like a stack of small separate scores connected by a line down the left-hand side. You can (a) leave the line there; (b) use "digital whiteout" in NWC to remove it; or (c) copy it to the clipboard from print preview and paste it into your favorite graphics editor, where you can erase the line quite easily.

Another way is to simply create separate files and then assemble them onto a single page in a graphics program or a word processing program. But I personally prefer the single-score method. (Don't try to play the whole score at once; it will sound like crap.) ;-)

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #2 –
There is a Page->Setup option to: Justify printed systems vertically

It would be useful to have:
  • Justify printed systems vertically
  • Justify printed systems horizontally

In Lilypond, this is known as 'ragged-right', and is much used, especially for examples.

Bill, I think your first idea is useful for creating variable spacing between systems.
There are some digital whiteout techniques for SimonJShaw's needs but he seems to be looking for an official solution.

IMO, Sysbreak needs to become an object, rather than an attribute of a bar object.  Most of the song level options may need to be changed when a new system is started.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #3 –
Hi Rick -

Well....

I just tried my brilliant idea. Found out that, when printing, NWC extends all the short systems to make them match the longest one. Should have tried it before explaining it. (When? When will I ever learn?)

However, it can still be made to work - although it takes a lot more whiteout than I thought it would. Simply insert a System Close barline right before the end of each staff and then choose "open (hidden)" for the ending bar. When this is done, NWC only extends the staff lines, and it is a relatively simple matter to white those out, either with NWC "digital whiteout" or with a graphics program.

Don't know if this qualifies as the "clever way round this problem" that SimonJSimon asked for (it's certainly not as clever as I thought it was), but it does get round it.

Stray memory (OT): Sir Thomas Beecham was once directing an opera with a provincial cast, including a very large soprano. During one of the rehearsals she wandered backstage, and Beecham asked a stagehand where she had gone. "Oh, she's round behind," the stagehand responded. Sputtered Beecham: "I asked for her geography, not her description!"

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #4 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
However, it can still be made to work
Yes I know, but it is a poor substitute for not having a Sysbreak object that has left and right margin settings.

Codas are a particular problem. They are supposed to be indented. More importantly, they need to be indented. Try to simulate that with digital whiteout when you have an orchestral bracket and a keyboard brace.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #5 –
Well, I think it's time to bother you. ;-)

I read many times about "digital whiteout" but I never found a description on how to do it.
I did a search in the community and found a lot of references but no explication. Maybe I didn't go back enough.

Any good soul around to enlighten me?
(I expect a link to the relevant thread I was unable to find...)

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
I read many times about "digital whiteout" but ... Any good soul around to enlighten me?
(I expect a link to the relevant thread I was unable to find...)
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5676.msg36973#msg36973
I was just calling it "whiteout" way back when. Lawrie coined that phrase "digital whiteout".

If you search for "digital white" by user: Rick G. you will find a lot of small examples with both png and nwc attachments.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #7 –
I knew it should have been here somewhere!
Thank you Rick.

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #8 –
Well thanks for all the thought you've applied to the issue everyone. 
I have been using the "separate-songs + cut and paste into word-processor" solution up to now.  Very inconvenient it is too.

I hadn't thought of Bill's idea of multiplying the staves; this certainly gets a 'clever' mark, but as it doesn't quite work no 'solution' bonus :-)

I have also needed to do this for songs with multiple-verse lyrics to be printed separately underneath.  Any 'clever solutions' (TM) for that?  Tell me to RTFM if it is already there.

Architecture-wise, I would have thought that the 'attribute of a barline object' was fine, but needs this one detail, just as a slur needs 'up' or 'down' etc., so a section break needs a 'ragged' or 'justified' modifier.

Thanks again,
Simon

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #9 –
You're right about codas, Rick, and I agree with you that a "system break" object would be a good idea. Among the attributes that would need to be attached to it are ragged right vs. justified, indentation of the following system, staff labels on or off, and space to the following system (so that multiple movements could be place in a single file with enough space between the end of one movement and the beginning of the next to include title information). It might also be possible to include show/hide information for individual staves in the next system, thus solving the problem of thin orchestral textures requiring full-page scores. And probably a number of other things that I've missed.

In the meantime, we have whiteout.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #10 –
G'day Simon,
Quote from: SimonJShaw –
I have also needed to do this for songs with multiple-verse lyrics to be printed separately underneath.  Any 'clever solutions' (TM) for that?

I haven't tried it but...

OK, (this'll only work for single page or the last page of a multi-page work*) if you turn off vertical justification and leave sufficient space at the bottom of the page, you could:
  • Overprint from a word processor - I.E print from NWC, and then put the page back into the MF or manual feed tray and print from a word processor set up to print at the bottom of the page.
  • Place text entries below the the staff placed to appear in the right place...  Take some fiddlin' around in preview.
  • Whatever someone has thought of that I haven't.


* Hmm, thinking about it you could adjust the bottom margin to force space on every page, but this would limit you to the first method.

G'day Rick
Quote
Lawrie coined that phrase "digital whiteout".
Ya know, I didn't realise that...

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #11 –
Quote
In the meantime, we have whiteout.

I don't think I've ever needed to do digital whiteout, so this might not make sense, but:

I wonder if it would be possible for Eric to program the ability to draw a rectangle in our scores that could then be set with the attribute "mask background?"

Such boxes are available in many programs, and can be either dragged to the right position, or resized using "handles" at the corners or along the sides.

They could be used to natively white out a staff between two groups you want on a page, or they could white out lines between the staffs, or the first inch of a staff if you want an indent, etc.

This would be digital whiteout made convenient.

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #12 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
...or the first inch of a staff if you want an indent, etc.

Indents could be a problem, especially if there's a brace as RickG pointed out...  I have used DW (tm) for indenting single staves, but not grand or orchestral systems.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Section break extends system

Reply #13 –
Indents of complete systems would definitely be a problem - unless there's a way to move to move braces and brackets that I don't know about. I rather like David's idea re a resizable rectangle to be used for whiteout. However, we already more or less have that with the webdings' "g" character. Width is dealt with by adding and subtracting "g"s; height, by changing font size. It ain't perfect, but it does the job. Usually.

Bill