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Topic: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar (Read 6273 times) previous topic - next topic

four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Hi Guys,
A request for help here.
I am writing in 6/8 but want to write four crotchets in a treble line bar while maintaining the six quavers in the bass line bar underneath. Can anyone help me out here?
Thanks in advance,
Grant

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #1 –
Writing 4 quarter notes (crotchets) in 6/8 will not work but writing 4 dotted eighth notes (quavers) in 6/8 will work.
 

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #2 –
Well, 4 crotchets is 4 beats, 6 quavers is 3 beats...  the match don't work, but I guess you already figured that out.

Will the tempo of the 6/8 part stay constant with the rest of the piece or is there going to be a tempo change for that bar.  Given that the 6/8 remains in the bass I'm guessing the tempo doesn't change, so what you really want is 4 notes against 6 for the same overall duration.

If my assumptions are correct then what you want is actually dotted quavers and not crotchets.  This will maintain the timing and give the correct time values to the bars.

See the attachment - no comments on my (lack of) composing skills either ;)

Ha! I notice Milton has replied while I was making the example...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #3 –
G'day, Lawrie! (Or G'night here in Nashville, TN, USA ;))  Just goes to prove, great minds think alike!

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #4 –
I think this is just a matter of figuring out how to write duplets (which NWC does not support) against the 6:8 in the other staff. 
NWC won't let you do that - it screws up the bar length, but for appearance, you might try four eighths instead of four quarters.  Try Lawrie's example, changed to this in the upper line:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|TimeSig|Signature:2/4|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:7
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:7
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:16th|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-4,-2,1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Alternatively, change both staffs like so:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Tempo|Base:Eighth|Tempo:120|Pos:6
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Tempo|Tempo:240|Pos:6|Visibility:Never
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:7
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:7
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Tempo|Base:Eighth|Tempo:120|Pos:6|Visibility:Never
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-4,-2,1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
 
and
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|TimeSig|Signature:6/8
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never


|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Rest|Dur:8th|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

(Hope I got the time and tempo changes right.  )


Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #5 –
Thanks, David. Writing duplets (compressing four crotchets into a 6/8 bar) is what is what I am trying to achieve. However, I didn't realise I couldn't do it (easily) in NWC.
Thanks for your input. It's greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Grant

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #6 –
You might want to try out this user tip. Peter Edwards had some good ideas there.
Since 1998

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #7 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I think this is just a matter of figuring out how to write duplets
What purpose does the meter change (to 2/4) serve in your first example?

Quote from: David Palmquist –
Try Lawrie's example, changed to this in the upper line:
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
<snip>
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Lawrie's example was done in NWC 1.75. It is a bit difficult to paste your clip into it.

I think that your second example is musically incorrect. A duplet essentially means:
"Play 2 notes in the space of 3". I've never seen a construct like your second example.

IMO, the problem with duplets in NWC is not that you can't get the notes to look and sound right, but rather that you can't get the number to center over the beam.
Registered user since 1996

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #8 –
Actually, I didn't have any trouble pasting David's clips into Lawrie's example. But Rick is right, David: the proper notation here is two eighths against three eighths, as in your first example. And you don't need the hidden time change to write two against three. You need a hidden time change only when you are adding extra notes to a bar, not when you are taking some away. In that case, you also need a hidden tempo change, to make the padded bar play for the same amount of time as the other bars in the piece.

And do note that David's method, while it looks right, won't sound right - there'll be hickups at every rest. So you'll need a hidden playback staff that looks more like Lawrie's original top staff.

Centering the 2 over the duplet beam can be tricky - agreed. However, this is sometimes better than just letting NWC do it, as with the native triplet, where we have no control over where the 3 is placed. I have occasionally had to resort to using digital whiteout to remove the 3 and placing a new one via text entry.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #9 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Actually, I didn't have any trouble pasting David's clips into Lawrie's example.
Strange. When I open Lawrie's example, it opens into NWC1. Your file associations may differ.
Registered user since 1996

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Rick G.
Your file associations may differ.

Probably. It's also true that I've removed NWC1 from my machine entirely - can't associate anything with it.

Bill

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #11 –
The NWC Viewer will direct NWC1 files into an existing NWC1 installation. If you uninstall NWC1, or uncheck the "Automatic launch into NWC" option in the Viewer, then NWC1 files can be quickly opened in NWC2 through the shell associations.

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #12 –
I posted the file as an NWC1 one in case Grant didn't have NWC2, this being the general forum and not the NWC2 forum an' all...

I imagine over the next little while that the need for this will disappear...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #13 –
Quote
What purpose does the meter change (to 2/4) serve in your first example?
Darned if I remember, tonight.  I was experimenting, more focused on bar alignment than on playback.  Maybe I thought it did something effective. 

Quote
Lawrie's example was done in NWC 1.75. It is a bit difficult to paste your clip into it.
I wasn't expecting anybody to paste anything into 1.75, since I presumed everyone will have upgraded to version 2 by now. 

Quote
Well, 4 crotchets is 4 beats, 6 quavers is 3 beats...  the match don't work, but I guess you already figured that out.
  Since the question asked about crotchets, I assumed they were quarter notes and tried to work out something that would work as per the request, even though I too felt they should be 8th notes. 

Quote
I think that your second example is musically incorrect. A duplet essentially means:
"Play 2 notes in the space of 3". I've never seen a construct like your second example.
Somewhere early in my experiment, I was trying to run a 4 beat pattern against 3, but I suddenlty realized that the 6/8 bars would normally be counted in 2 anyway.  So I abandoned that idea and tried to adapt to what the question was asking.  And got it wrong.  Would a fourplet would be musically correct?  4 notes in the time of 3? 

Hmm, do we sometimes get tied up with n-tuplet notation and forget we don't always need it?  Modifying Lawrie's original response a wee bit, this would seem to be musically correct and clear to read and count.  I don't have a preference here as to beaming. 
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:-6
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-4^
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:8th,Dotted|Pos:-6
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:-4^
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Quote
IMO, the problem with duplets in NWC is not that you can't get the notes to look and sound right, but rather that you can't get the number to center over the beam.
They seem to centre well in my incorrect example, because they were aligned to hidden rests.  The same might not be said if your screen settings differ from mine.

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #14 –
Quote from: David Palmquist
do we sometimes get tied up with n-tuplet notation and forget we don't always need it?

Depends. When I see something like your most recent example, I think syncopation; two against three has a different feel, and I would play it differently.

Bill

Re: four crotchets in a 6/8 bar

Reply #15 –
Yes, I agree.

I played it back last night, incidentally, at Q=360, and I liked the effect.