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Topic: Some questions regarding lyrics... (Read 13930 times) previous topic - next topic

Some questions regarding lyrics...

I'm currently composing a choir piece, and I would like the verses to be sung as a tenor solo, (It's a hymnal, so lyrics above the staff, check.) And have a descant for verse three above the treble staff. Is there a way to start entering lyrics at a certain point? I attached the piece to give you a better idea.
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #1 –
Dave C.'s attachment is done in NWC2, but this solution should work for either version.

Select the first 10 measures of staff Vocal:Tenor and set Properties->Notes->Lyric Syllable:Never. Then enter the the verses as you normally would.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #2 –
I used to put underscores in the lyrics, but I now use the "Lyrics/Never" method. It saves me a lot of counting.

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #3 –
Thanks- I had no Idea it would actually be that simple. :)
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #4 –
You can put descants in as chord notes, on the Soprano staff with say the tails up and the other sops tails down. Then put the lyrics for the descant as Text. Tricky for alignment but it works .

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #5 –
Use llucyy's idea, but put the descant on a separate layered staff. Then you won't have to enter the lyrics as text. See attached example.

....which brings up one of our pet peeves. Smaller noteheads would be really, really nice for entering descants (as well as cues and ossia....)

Bill

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #6 –
Quote
....which brings up one of our pet peeves. Smaller noteheads would be really, really nice for entering descants (as well as cues and ossia....)
I completely agree. Especially since I have soprano and alto notes on the top staff. without the smaller noteheads, the descant just makes it look too cluttered. :(
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #7 –
One way to help with the cluttered look is to use a different color for the descant. Magenta makes a nice gray in a black-and-white printout. And in NWC2 you can assign a gray (or any other color you want) to one of the program's seven available color slots (tools/options/color/highlights 1 through 7). Can't remember if this is possible in 1.x, but I don't think so.

However, the ability to have different font sizes on different staves would be much better.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #8 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
... in NWC2 you can assign a [a color].Can't remember if this is possible in 1.x, but I don't think so.
You can in NWC 1.75 as well, but you are restricted to 3 definable colors (more than enough). If you change color definitions, they will be ignored in the viewer  :(
The color of beams, slurs, brackets and the triplet 3 are set to the color of the staff.

Quote from: William Ashworth –
However, the ability to have different font sizes on different staves would be much better.
Without the ability to shift notes left|right more finely than the program currenly allows, this would be less useful than you might think. For some descants, I use text and a custom font, but this becomes unworkable if there are any beams or many leger lines.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #9 –

Quote from: Rick G. re different note sizes on different staves
Without the ability to shift notes left|right more finely than the program currenly allows, this would be less useful than you might think.

You're right, Rick, and that's another reason to wish for the ability to shift notes to the left as well as to the right, which several of us have put down among the features we'd most like to see added to NWC. And I also agree about the potential difficulties for note alignment caused by changing staff metrics between staves. This is covered more thoroughly in the Cue notes? topic begun recently by David Palmquist in the Tips and Tricks section of this forum. It's not insurmountable from a programming standpoint, but it's not a simple bit of boiler-plate code, either. We'll probably have to wait a while.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #10 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
... changing staff metrics between staves.
This has intriguing possibilities. The program might let you reduce the SysFont on a normal sized staff or let you reduce the size of the entire staff. Depending on how robust NWC's placement/alignment/spacing routines are, this might be easy, or require a complete overhaul. Of course there would be those who ask: Why do I have to add a whole layer just for a few notes?
Registered user since 1996

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #11 –
Quote
Of course there would be those who ask: Why do I have to add a whole layer just for a few notes?
*Raises his hand* ;) I've been using diamond noteheads for cue notes, even though they're not "correct", just because I hate dealing with creating noteheads that are smaller and yet take up the same amount of space, ie mounting grace notes onto invisible rests and the like.
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Dave C. –
... ie mounting grace notes onto invisible rests ....
How you you mount grace notes onto rests?
Registered user since 1996

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #13 –
Perhaps I used the wrong wording. Not exactly mounting them, I used a grace note in front of a rest and I hid the rest. Like I said, it didn't turn out the way I expected. :)
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #14 –
Like This:
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #15 –
Try this for the first four bars of the top staff, Dave.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:Bb
|Tempo|Tempo:140|Text:"Lively"|Pos:10|Visibility:Never
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Text|Text:"Piano Intro"|Font:StaffBold|Pos:6
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Down,Lyric=Never
|Rest|Dur:8th,Grace
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0^|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Muted
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-2^|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=First,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=End,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=First,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=End,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=First,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=End,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=First,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-2^|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=End,Muted
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=First,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=End,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=First,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:-2^|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Beam=End,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Grace|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Lyric=Never,Muted
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Down|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I moved and adjusted some rests to facilitate beaming and I broke some syncopated notes up to avoid crossing notes across the major subdivision of the bar.   I also fixed the stem directions for these grace / cue notes.


Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #16 –
That's why it's good to have access to people much cleverer than I when it comes to this. :) Works great. Only thing I had to change was the quarter rest at the end should be an eighth rest. Still, I'm impressed you did that so quickly!
*Edit* I was wrong. It was just an eighth rest that I probably entered myself at the beginning in error.
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #17 –
I've finished the piece, largely due to the help I've recieved on this forum, so as a small thank you, enjoy the completed nwc file. It's the least I can do.
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #18 –
It sounds nice, Dave. 

Just a few suggestions

Text overlap in bar 5:You want to move the text up a smidge to avoid overlapping the note stem/flag.

Bars 6, 8 and 10, top staff:
It's always a good idea to make it easy for the reader to know where the beat is in each bar.  Where you use a dotted quarter that doesn't start on the beat, you're wiser to use eighth/tie/quarter.  In measures 6 and 8 of the top staff, for instance, you have the dotted quarter starting on beat 3.  NWC won't detect the error because it doesn't count the shorter duration note in a chord where the note values are unequal.  NWC also won't detect it in bar 10, because the notes do add up to 4 beats, but it's jolting. 

In the bottom staff, bar 6, it should be 8th tied to half instead of the way you have it.

Stem directions:
I don't work with choral music or piano, so I'll throw this in as a question for someone else to answer:  Is it customary to switch stem directions for a given voice, as you do for the lower voice in the top staff in bars 6 and 8?  If not, I wonder if you could either do all the lower voice part stem down, or use a layered staff to use stem-up notes in place of the stem-downs.

Dotted rest:
In measure 38, the dotted half rest is correct, but it's a bit theoretical and old-fashioned.  Some readers won't notice the dot, others won't know what it means on a rest.  You'd be better using a half rest and a quarter rest.

Most of your top staff bars are syncopated.  I think they're going to be hard to read, since most of the notes don't start on the beat.  I think the note that starts on the last half of beat two and ends on beat three should be a pair of tied 8ths, rather than one quarter.


Enough out of me. I think you've got a decent song here, and a little tweaking of the notation is all that's needed.  Nice work!


Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #19 –
Thanks! I did make all the changes you suggested. This is going to be read by some pretty non-musical people, so it's good to be able to make it as easy to read as possiblle.
Quote
Most of your top staff bars are syncopated.  I think they're going to be hard to read, since most of the notes don't start on the beat.
Yes, unforunately. My choir director dreads the amount of rehearsal time my pieces take up. :)
-DAVID COOPER

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #20 –
Quote
My choir director dreads the amount of rehearsal time my pieces take up.

You can probably cut down on the rehearsal time by breaking all the syncopated quarters that cross beat 3 up into pairs of tied 8ths.  If you avoid beaming across the third beat, that will help, too.  Making it easier for the singer will improve life for the conductor, he will be grateful, and more willing to use your material  Everyone wins.

As an example, I suggest this for bars 51 and 52:
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-3,-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-4^,-2^|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-4,-2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-3,-1
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-2^,0^
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-2,0
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-3,-1
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-4^,-2^|Opts:Stem=Up
|Chord|Dur:8th|Pos:-4,-2|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th,Dotted|Pos:-3
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End


Your piece isn't long, so it shouldn't take more than 10 or 15 minutes to make most of the changes (but don't hold me to it - some of your chords may take a few minutes to think through).

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #21 –
Dave;
   David has given you some excellent advice. I have a couple of things for you to consider. After a lot of years of vocal performances I have found it is often easier to read a new piece when each part is on it's own staff. That way all you are following are the notes and lyrics for your own part.
   The other is that you are asking a lot out of your male voices. Some of it is very low for a tenor and at measures 44 and 45 it is high for a bass. Just for future consideration you might think about doing separate parts for tenor and bass voices.
    I wish you well with the performance.

Regards
Keith

PS
David, you are correct, when writing two voices on a staff it is customary to write one part with all stem up and the other all stem down. When one voice is silent you still continue using the same stem direction and do not switch them.
Illigitimi Non Carborundum

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #22 –
Hi Keith, thank you for confirming what I wasn't sure of. 

Dave, you probably spent a lot of effort making two note chords particularly where you needed to have stems in both directions because the notes were different values: set the stem direction, enter the note, move up (or down), reset the stem direction, and press control-enter. 

You can achieve much the same, or even better, result by using layered staffs and save a lot of work.  Just enter all of first voice on the top staff, stem up.***  Put all the alto on a second staff, stem down.   Then make the first staff property "layer with next staff."   And so on.

*** (Actually just write them out in each staff without setting the stem direction, then highlight each staff and set its stem direction at one time.)
 

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #23 –
Quote
Quote
You can achieve much the same, or even better, result by using layered staffs and save a lot of work.  Just enter all of first voice on the top staff, stem up.***  Put all the alto on a second staff, stem down.   Then make the first staff property "layer with next staff."   And so on.

Is it just me or do beamed notes resist having their stem direction changed when you highlight the entire staff and change stem direction?

John
Nil illigitemae carborundum

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #24 –
Quote from: jashearwood –
do beamed notes resist having their stem direction changed when you highlight the entire staff and change stem direction?

This will happen if one or more notes in the is a split stem chord prevent the beam from changing stem direction. Otherwise, this should not happen.

Re: Some questions regarding lyrics...

Reply #25 –
Quote
The other is that you are asking a lot out of your male voices. Some of it is very low for a tenor and at measures 44 and 45 it is high for a bass
Yes, that is true, I tend to ask alot of my performers, particularly tenors and pianists (seeing as I am both). I did pause and consider that once, but seeing as I was going to be singing that part, I went for sound rather than ease of performance. Another reminder for me to not write to your own unique abilities. (I've also done some insane piano stuff too, like runs of straight sixteenth notes, that I eventually had to modify)
Quote
You can achieve much the same, or even better, result by using layered staffs and save a lot of work.
and for some reason, I thought about that after I wrote the song. :)
-DAVID COOPER