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MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Hi There

I have three interesting (well for me they are painful) problems when importing MIDI files (exported from SharpEye music scanning software). See attached PDF of page one of a piece of music (UP! - Shania Twain for SATB) and enclosed raw import of the MIDI into NWC2.  A few things happen:

i. See in bar 1, the fifth note on the original music is a quarter, buit in noteworthy it is represented as two eight notes (beamed) - this happens throughout this and any other piece of music that I happen to import.  Can't quite get the pattern but it seems to happen if there is a quarter duration before or after two beamed eight notes...
ii. Despite trying everything I can, I cannot seem to get it to auto beam eight duration notes in 4,4 grouping - even tried the user tool but again I must be doing something wrong... (See bar 3 of the S&A staff of the PDF)
iii. It seems that all rests of quarter duration immediately followed by a rest of eighth duration, are converted to dotted quarter rests when imported by NWC2 (see PDF bar 4 of the S&A staff)

Is there anyone out there that knows how at least the first of these problems can be fixed at all?  :)

Thanks a lot

Cliff

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #1 –
UPDATE:

I used the MXML2NWCC utility supplied by Nicolas to import MXML rather than the MIDI format  and all my problems are solved. It may be interesing for NoteWorthy to note that there may be some bugs with import of the type described above (but then again I may just be dopey too!)

Cheers all

Cliff

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #2 –
G'day Cliff,

Quote from: cliffvt –
i. See in bar 1, the fifth note on the original music is a quarter, buit in noteworthy it is represented as two eight notes (beamed) - this happens throughout this and any other piece of music that I happen to import.  Can't quite get the pattern but it seems to happen if there is a quarter duration before or after two beamed eight notes...
ii. Despite trying everything I can, I cannot seem to get it to auto beam eight duration notes in 4,4 grouping - even tried the user tool but again I must be doing something wrong... (See bar 3 of the S&A staff of the PDF)
iii. It seems that all rests of quarter duration immediately followed by a rest of eighth duration, are converted to dotted quarter rests when imported by NWC2 (see PDF bar 4 of the S&A staff)

i. This is a common convention used to show where the beats are - While I'm no not aware of a user tool that will fix this, it wouldn't be that difficult to write one I wouldn't think...  NWC cannot be instructed to change this behaviour...

ii. the 4,4 groupings are not the normal convention in 4/4 or Common time.  If you want to make this happen automagically then temporarily change the time signature to 2/2 or cut Common time (Alla Breve).  Do your automatic beam, and then change the time sig. back.  NB  notes already beamed will NOT be changed - you'll have to manually un-beam 'em first (select the whole staff and then press <Ctrl-B> should do it for you)

iii. Import of MIDI is NOT a notation import - NWC detects the note on and note off commands - as a result there is no definition for a rest - it is simply the duration between a note off and the next note on...

Given that you are looking at imports from Sharpeye, and I have already mentioned this in another post, I suggest you look at MXML2NWCC to import from mxml instead of using MIDI and as the intermediary format.

Hmm, I noticed you just posted while I was writing this - still, I'll post it anyhow for future reference...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #3 –
Quote
ii. the 4,4 groupings are not the normal convention in 4/4 or Common time.  If you want to make this happen automagically then temporarily change the time signature to 2/2 or cut Common time (Alla Breve).  Do your automatic beam, and then change the time sig. back.

You can simply add a visibility=never cut time signature immediately after the legitimate common time signature to force the beaming to groups of four.  Then you don't have to remember to change the time back to 4/4 when you've finished beaming.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #4 –
Thank you both David & Lawrie for your valuable input.

Lawrie, on the MIDI import comment - point taken, thank you.  However, I wonder whether it wouldn't be more correct for NoteWorthy, when it detects a space/rest of a quarter and an eight between a sound ending and the next sound beginning, to interpret it as a rest of duration 4th followed by a rest of duration 8th, rather than a 4th dotted which in my opinion is not normal convention for rests? Just wondering..

Cheers

Cliff

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #5 –
G'day Cliff,
This might be somewhat problematic...

There are several sets of rules pertaining to rests but basically you should only use 1 rest per silent period...  However that isn't the whole thing, 'cos you shouldn't use rests across the meter...

E.G. say you had a 4/4 bar with a crotchet note, 2 crotchet rests and another crotchet note - even though the 2 crotchet rests equal a minim rest you shouldn't use one there 'cos it cuts across the meter, however, if the bar was rest, rest, note, note then you could change to a minim rest...  The basic rules are fairly straight forward but can seem comples when explaining them.  I would have to see the particuler circumstance you're referring to to be sure, but it isn't unreasonable to use a dotted crotchet rest UNLESS it cuts across the meter.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #6 –
Thanks for the reply Lawrie - I enclose a sample of what I mean - see bars 2 and 4.  They should be, I think:

BAR 2 of Staff 1 : minim rest, crotchet rest crochet, however NWC2 imports and displays as minim dotted rest and crotchet

BAR 4 of Staff 1 : crotchet rest, quaver rest, then the rest of the bar, however NWC2 imports and displays as crotchet dotted rest

I don't want to ride this subject to death, and if you like we can close it, but if it is wrong then I guess it is, but then again I may be wrong.  I'm just not used to seeing rests as in BAR 2 of Staff 1 of the sample for example!

Cheers

Cliff

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #7 –
G'day Cliff,
Based on what is in the file:

Bar 2, staff 1: I would expect to see a minim rest, a dotted crotchet rest and the quaver note - also acceptable would be minim rest, crotchet rest, quaver rest and the quaver note.

Bar 4, staff 1: What is there is quite OK, though a crotchet rest plus a quaver rest would also be acceptable in most cases.

Bar 6, staff 1: This is different though - the dotted crotchet rest is wrong, it should be a crotchet rest followed by a quaver rest - the dotted crotchet rest crosses the meter in this case.

Bar 8, staff1: This is also questionable, I reckon there should be a crotchet rest followed by a minim rest - again, it's crossing the meter.

For the most part, a 4/4 bar should be treated as 2*2/4 bars as far as layout is concerned - this improves readability by showing more clearly where the beats lie.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #8 –
Thanks Lawrie, given that you agree, should this be escalated to NoteWorthy as an import bug then?

Thanks for your help!

Cliff

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #9 –
G'day Cliff,
knowing Eric, I'd say he's already aware of our conversation...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #10 –
Quote
minim rest, a dotted crotchet rest and the quaver note
Just wondering, but please tell me you are using some kind of vernacular equal to half note, quarter note etc., So that I can assume that my knowledge of music theory is not way off! Just never heard those terms before. :)
-DAVID COOPER

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #11 –
Ahh, I'm an Aussie and was taught from the British tradition...
Conversion table:

Breve                     = Double whole
Semibreve               = whole
Minim                     = Half
Crotchet                 = Quarter
Quaver                   = Eighth
Semiquaver             = Sixteenth
Demisemiquaver       = Thirtysecond
Hemidemisemiquaver = Sixtyfourth
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #12 –
Hi Dave;
   Many of the posters here are not from the U.S. and speak one form or another of U. K. English. What you are hearing is the methodology of refering to notes used by our friends "across the pond". I know there is a chart somewhere that shows the the equivalences. Just found it in the NWC2 FAQ.

in NWC           English             
whole             semibreve       
half                minim
quarter           crotchet
eighth            quaver  
sixteenth       semiquaver
thirty-second  demisemiquaver
sixty-fourth    hemidemisemiquaver

Hope this helps in the translation. ;o)
Regards
Keith
PS I see Lawrie posted as I was typing. Thanks Lawrie, I forgot the breve.
Illigitimi Non Carborundum

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #13 –
Don't forget the breve!!  If we keep mentioning it, maybe it will appear!

BTW, somewhere I saw a reference to a quasihemidemisemiquaver = 1/128th note.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #14 –
That would explain it! I'm American and, well, I wasn't taught at all in any tradition! Hence I always fear that I'll be wrong in some way or another. Thanks for the "Conversion Table", I'm sure other non-british/aussie-types besides me will find it helpful as well :)
-DAVID COOPER

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #15 –
G'day Cyril,
Quote from: Cyril Alberga –
Don't forget the breve!!  If we keep mentioning it, maybe it will appear!

I remembered it <smug grin>  ;)

Quote
BTW, somewhere I saw a reference to a quasihemidemisemiquaver = 1/128th note.

Yup, though I remembered is as a semihemidemisemiquaver.  A quick look at wikipedia mentions both terms.  I didn't mention it as I wasn't absolutely sure I remembered it correctly - I mean, it must have been over 30 years ago when I last heard it!

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #17 –
One day I'll print out those UK notations and post them on the wall above my screen.  Sometimes they seem a lot more suitable for discussing rhythms, etc.  Other times, not.

Question - do they apply equally to rests as well as notes?  Would you have a crotchet rest, a minim rest, etc.?

(If Bill looks in, since Dave C is now posting, to avoid confusion, maybe address him as Dave and me as David?  That's what my wife calls me. )

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #18 –

Quote from: David Palmquist
If Bill looks in, since Dave C is now posting, to avoid confusion, maybe address him as Dave and me as David?

I thought I always had....? Maybe I'm going senile and missed my own post. (And some shake their heads and say: going senile?)

Cheers, and apologies (just in case) -

Bill

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #20 –
Quote
maybe address him as Dave and me as David?
Works for me- funny thing that my dad's name is also David, except he's Dave and I'm David. Then we have 5 Davids at work... :)
-DAVID COOPER

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #21 –
**OT** 
Quote
funny thing that my dad's name is also David, except he's Dave and I'm David. Then we have 5 Davids at work... :)
My orchestra has many Davids:  conductor, 1st violin, 2nd violin, cello, bass (well, that's a woman's surname, but still...), 2 horns (not 2nd horn, but two horn players named Dave), tuba, and a percussionist.  When we need extra brass (for Respighi or whatever), there's two more, and when we need saxes, there's another. 
We should be called The Dave David Orchestra.

None in my big band, however.  There we have 2 Garys, 2 Mikes, 2 Joes, and for a time we had 2 Keiths and 2 Kevins.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #22 –
Still O/T**
When my kid played soccer, he was one of two Brians on the team, and there were also two Ryans.  When they were young, they needed a lot of direction, and it was hard to know which kid the coach was calling to.  So he started calling himself Bill.  No, William is not his middle name or anything, it's just that Bill worked for him.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #23 –
He did not, by any chance, grow up to be a doctor?
Bill Of Health?

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #24 –
**still OT**

Rob: Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.

When our first daughter was born 39 years ago we decided on the name "Jennifer" based on knowing exactly two Jennifers in our entire combined lives. About the same time we made that decision, "Love Story" came out. When Jenny got to first grade she found herself in a classroom with three other Jennys....out of, I think, 10 girls total. I'm not sure she's ever forgiven us.

Cheers....

Bill (healthy but not "of health")

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #25 –
**still OT**
I once had a class with two Erins and three Aarons, and in this region they're pronouced the same way...

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #26 –
...and my nephew's name is Aren.  Pronounced the same way.

Re: MIDI Import errors - any ideas?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: cliffvt –
Is there anyone out there that knows how at least the first of these problems can be fixed at all?
Getting back to the original topic, if you make the changes in red to cliffvt's problem file: NWC_Import_Example.nwc, export it and re-import it, the problems are gone.
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