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Writing a Symphony


I have read the topic from some 5-6 years ago (clicky) but I am in a slightly different boat than where the OPer of this topic.

I am looking to write a symphony in the sense of a soundtrack, yet more as the script of a story than a soundtrack itself. Sort-of like Fantasia by Disney, but more a single story with voices than a orchestral narrative to many stories. I want to write the symphony so that an instrument is taking the place of someone speaking. (For example, I have a clarinet play instead of Leonardo de Caprio speak the main character).

I have a fundamental outline of a story which will be between 90-200 minutes when read aloud. This story has 1 main character, 3-7 supporting characters, 7-20 additional/rotating characters plus various scenes with loud and vociferous crowds.

I understand basic music theory. I've been in two choir classes, played the drums and violin each for a year. I can read music, identifying the parts of the staff, each note, the various "commands" (da cota, ds da cota, repeat, crescendos, decrescendos, etc), etc etc. I understand there are ranges for each instrument, that some are able to play multiple notes/chords at once while others are limited to single notes. Yet, outside of the basics, I do not have terribly much music background.

In addition to listening to the various symphonies, reading the assorted books, locating study scores to "read" while listening, I foresee that I will need to:
identify the characters and bg events in each scene
write out the script of the story
identify the emotion being displayed in each statement/line
identify the bg ambience in each scene as the scene progresses
begin searching for solo scores of various instruments to begin identifying which instrument I desire for each character
 
I also recognize I will likely recruit someone down the road to help me compose and arrange this as a whole. But until that point, is there anything more I need to be looking at or keeping in mind?

Tim

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #1 –
Quote
is there anything more I need to be looking at or keeping in mind?

Well, lots....;-)

For starters - if you are not already familiar with them - I suggest you find recordings of Benjamin Britten's Young Person's Guide To the Orchestra and Sergei Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf (these are often paired on the same disc). The Britten piece is a set of variations that features each instrument of the orchestra in turn, so you can hear what each sounds like and how a master composer handles each one in terms of idiomatic writing. The Prokofiev is a story told to an orchestral accompaniment, where various instruments act out the parts of the story as the narrator reads it, which is what I think you are trying to do, and again, it is masterfully handled.

You can also look at the score of the Britten, as written out in NWC. It's in the Scriptorium, which is worth a visit anyway to see how other people work with the program (and get some great music). The Britten piece is at http://nwc-scriptorium.org/ftp/classical/b/britypgo.nwc

And you'll find many of us willing to answer specific questions as they come up. Good luck!

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #2 –

I know and recall Peter and the Wolf and was thinking of it.

Thank You

Tim

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #3 –
Those two pieces are good examples.
My orchestra happens to be performing both of those pieces next weekend.  Many of the younger/less experienced players seem to understand instruments that they don't play a bit better than they did before we started rehearsing.  We also are playing a piece that was well-composed but not-so-well-orchestrated.  A good example of what not to do...

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #4 –
 if you want advanced lessons on orchestrial development, listen to Bolero by ravel.

My advice though is to go with whatever sounds right to you, not just what is the "right" way to orchestrate things

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #5 –
Well - uh -

"Bolero" is one long orchestral crescendo: that is really the only effect you can study in that piece. Ravel wrote it as an experiment in making things louder without having any single instrument play louder (it just adds more instruments to increase the volume), and he was amazed when his experiment became popular. Personally, he hated the thing. Or so several generations of music history students have been told.

And, yes, you should write sounds that sound right to you. But you also have to know what instruments make those sounds, and what their limitations are. Low tones on a flute, for instance, are quite a different animal than high tones on the same instrument, and if you write them expecting the high-tone effect you are going to be disappointed. Many instruments "speak" slowly in their lower registers, and if you write rapid passage work down there all your listeners will hear is the attacks. And so on. MIDI is not a reliable guide to these things, unless you have an extremely good sound card with sampled sound fonts, and even then it's questionable.

If you really want to learn orchestration, you should study scores, not just listen to recordings. Find something you like the sound of, then get hold of the score for that piece and find out how it's done. And don't be afraid to ask about specific effects: most composers love to talk about their craft, and we are usually pretty good at analyzing other composers' sounds as well as describing our own.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #6 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
that is really the only effect you can study in that piece

If I may, I would like to disagree!  It's probably the most accessible way to hear how get an organ sound without an organ - the section where the sax has the tune, and one piccolo is a 12th above, and the other piccolo is a 17th above, simulating a mutation stop on a pipe organ.  It's also very easy to hear what you can do with high bassoon (along with Rite of Spring).

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #7 –
Well, Ewan, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. There's no point in arguing over what is largely a matter of taste. I would like to give you Ravel's own take on it, though. This is from the London Daily Telegraph of July 16, 1931:

Quote
I am particularly desirous that there should be no misunderstanding as to my Bolero. It is an experiment in a very special and limited direction, and should not be suspected of aiming at achieving anything different from, or anything more than, it actually does achieve. Before the first performance, I issued a warning to the effect that what I had written was a piece lasting seventeen minutes and consisting wholly of orchestral tissue without music - of one long, very gradual crescendo. There are no contrasts, and there is practically no invention except in the plan and manner of the execution....Whatever may have been said to the contrary, the orchestral treatment is simple and straightforward throughout, without the slightest attempt at virtuosity.

The elipsis covers a note about the origin of the tune. I found this in a book called Composers on Music, edited by Sam Morgenstern [Pantheon books, 1956]. The creator of a work may not always be the best judge of it, of course, and you and I are still entitled to our own opinions.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #8 –
William, I think your Ravel quote supports Ewan's statement just as well as it supports yours.

Ewan didn't express a difference in musical taste, he was challenging your statement :
 
Quote
"Bolero" is one long orchestral crescendo: that is really the only effect you can study in that piece.

At that point he was talking about using the voices of instruments, the orchestration.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #9 –
Quote
he was talking about using the voices of instruments, the orchestration.

Which was what Ravel was talking about in the last sentence I quoted, and disclaiming any attempts at virtuoso treatment, no matter what others thought. My own sense of Bolero agrees with its composer, but I admit I'm in a minority. I do agree that Ravel was a master orchestrator. I just think you should look more at, say, La Valse, if you want to see that mastery at work. And I continue to think that Bolero is a poor choice to point a beginning composer to. But that's just my opinion.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #10 –
I don't particularly have an opinion on Bolero, Bill, but being something of a nut about a composer (Ellington), who achieved the most amazing tonal qualities with his orchestration,  I'm perhaps a bit sensitive when someone equates the mere addition of volume to bringing out a particular sound.


(Man Alive!  that was a run-on sentence indeed.)

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #11 –
You had to do something special on the occasion of your 2K barrier.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #12 –
Well, we're certainly in tune on Ellington. I saw him live - once. It was one of the greatest musical experiences of my life.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #13 –
Rob, thank you.  Does that mean I truly have Power, now?

Bill, I envy you.  I never saw Ellington perform live.  I now have three websites devoted to him:

http://ellingtonweb.ca
http://ellingtonweb.ca/Hostedpages/DoojiCollection/DoojiCollection.htm
http://ellingtonweb.ca/Hostedpages/CDCatalogue/CD-Lists.htm

and I have my own rehearsal band that plays only his music, once a month, for 3 hours (thanks to NWC making it so easy to copy scores and extract parts).  We've been doing this for six years now.

The Dooji Collection page is my latest effort, with images of many 78 rpm Ellington record labels, several of them linked to sound files of the actual recordings.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #14 –
I took a look at your sites, David. Nicely done and impressively complete. I'll recommend them to Duke-o-philes (I know a few).

A few memories of that concert. It took place in the spring of, I think, 1964. I was a junior music major at Whitman College in Walla Walla, Washington. Duke brought his band to town to do a gig for the Whitman community. They sort of snuck him into town - it was a small venue, and they wanted to make sure everyone from Whitman who wanted to be there could get in, so they didn't announce it to the local papers and radio stations. There are probably plenty of Ellington lovers who will tell you there was no Duke Ellington concert in Walla Walla that year. But I was there. Along with all the rest of the music department - every student, every faculty member, even the janitor. Believe me, we all got there early.

Two moments remain crystalline. One came near the end of the break, when I stepped outside to get a breath of fresh air and came face to face with the Maestro himself, who was coming in the same door I was going out. We came within six inches of bumping into each other. Naturally, I was too flustered to say a word. The second moment came toward the end of the second set, when Cat Anderson - it had to have been Cat - was playing a descant on trumpet a couple of octaves above the staff. I no longer remember the tune, but I certainly remember the effect it had. We had a young hotshot French horn player named Ted Pflute who was teaching brass at the college, and he was sitting in the front row. Midway through Cat's descant, Ted got up and walked over to stand directly in front of him, staring intently at his lips and mouthpiece. Cat stopped for a breather, and Ted said, loud enough for everyone in the room to hear over the band, "You can't play that note!" Cat grinned, said "But I'm playing it!", put his horn back to his lips, and went even higher. On the last chord, he was playing what was probably a triple-C: I have certainly never heard another trumpet go that high. Duke gave the cutoff, Cat pulled his horn down, looked out at the crowd, pointed his mouthpiece at us, and touched it with his index finger. And the applause nearly ripped the roof off the auditorium.

Great times. Great music. Thanks for allowing me to remember.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #15 –
Thank you for your kind words, Bill.

Anderson is one of the few high note trumpeters who played high notes with taste.  Although he could let it all hang out too.  Carney may have soloed in Sophisticated Lady around that time, with his two-minute-plus sustained note at the end?

I'm not sure Ellington was in Walla Walla in the spring - they seem to have spent most of the first six months either in Europe, the eastern US, with some travel to the midwest and to central Canada.  They went to California in June, then to Japan, returning in July.

However, they did appear in Walla Walla on October 22, 1964, documented in Dr. Klaus Stratemann's Duke Ellington, Day by Day and Film by Film, as 
Quote
"Whitman College Gym, Spokane (or Walla Walla?), Wash."

Considering he was European, writing from available documents about 25 years later, perhaps Dr. Stratemann's uncertainty over the location was understandable.

When you saw the band, they were on a road trip that started in Massachussets on Aug 30.  From there, they went to Toronto, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Lubbock, San Jose, Hollywood, Monterey, Fairfield, San Jose (Sept 22-29), then Palm Springs, Long Beach, San Jose, Lompoc, Sacramento, Davis, Los Altos, Richmond, San Francisco, San Mateo, Tacoma, Pullman, Aberdeen, The Dalles, Eugene, Corvallis, Tacoma, Spokane, Cheney, Walla Walla, Boise, Logan Utah, Los Angeles (3 day break), then Redwood City for 10 days, back to Hollywood, Lake Tahoe playing 3 shows a day from Nov 12 to 19, then Wichita, Milton Junction, Wisc., Jackson, MI, Toronto, Hull, Montreal, Wollaston Beach Mass, Jerse City, Ft. Dix, Baltimore, Washington DC, Kutztown Pa, Reading Pa (same day), and Rochester Minn.  The trip finished at the Trianon Ballroom in Chicago on Dec 18, and they were playing at home, in New York on Dec 21.  This sounds like a gruelling itinerary, but this was the band's life for over 40 years.

Going from the recording sessions around this time, the band you heard was probably made up of Cootie, Cat,  Herb Jones and Nat Woodard, trps;  Cooper, Brown and Connors, tbs; Carney, Hamilton, Hodges, Procope and Gonsalves, reeds; Ellington, Lamb and Woodyard, rhythm session. 

As I say, I envy you, Bill. 

(The band returned to Walla Walla a year later, on Oct 5, 1965 at the Wa-Hi Gym, and again in Feb 1974, 3 months before Duke's death.) 

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #16 –
Well, you've got the documents, so I guess it had to be October. Maybe it was just the spring in the music (and in my steps).

But it wasn't the Whitman gym. That was an impossible place to play. They rented a venue a couple of blocks from campus - I think the Masonic hall. It was smaller than the gym, which is probably why they didn't open it to the city. The band was situated midway down one of the long sides of the room, opposite the main door, which was in the other long side (that's the door I met Duke in). Chairs were set up in a U around the bandstand. An odd arrangement, but it worked. As to the confusion with Spokane, we Whitties are used to that. There's a college there called Whitworth. People mistake us for each other all the time.

By October 1965 I was in grad school in Pullman. I don't recall even hearing about the Wa-Hi concert, although I could conceivably have gone down for it if I had known: it's only about 120 miles. And I had wheels. Maybe it's because the woman I am now married to had chosen to go into the Peace Corps and was at that time 12,000 miles away.

Anyway, back to your original point: the Duke was a master orchestrator and a master composer whose music deserves to be studied for the way he handled the instruments as well as the way he handled the notes. The brass chords in "Take the 'A' Train" (you know the ones) still send shivers through me every time I hear them. People can argue all they want about who was the greatest composer of the 20th century, but Duke Ellington should certainly be on the short list. So should Thelonius Monk, but that's another story.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #17 –
Bill, may I copy your comments to the Duke LYM discussion list and possibly to the International DEMS society newsletter, please?  Your recollections of the event will be fascinating to many.

As an aside, I just received a copy of the 1949 Jazz Journal volume 5, in which there's a reference to a recording by Nellie Lutcher from 1947 called (wait for it): Wish I Was in Walla Walla.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #18 –
Of course you may copy, David - but thanks for asking first. And along with Wish I was in Walla Walla, don't forget Witch Doctor ("oo ee oo ah ah ting tang Walla Walla bing bang") and the triplets trio from Band Wagon ("Every winter we come back home to Walla Walla Walla")....

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #19 –
Back to the original discussion... (wink)...

You may want to find a copy of Vivaldi's score with notes for the Four Seasons.  Then you can follow along and see how he conveyed various messages through the instruments.  Quite fascinating.

I am very intrigued by this idea of an orchestral story.  Am I correct in thinking that you want to words for the narrative - just instruments?  Let me know more!

AlDoug

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #20 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Ewan didn't express a difference in musical taste, he was challenging your statement :
At that point he was talking about using the voices of instruments, the orchestration.
Agreed - I know Ravel didn't really like the piece, and I accept he didn't think he was trying to do anything special, except the crescendo.  But in my view, it's still the most accessible piece to hear that particular orchestration technique.

Sorry for the late reply - we've had a little horsie-race in Australia, and we're all obliged to be away from work for an extended weekend.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #21 –
So Ravel wrote it as a kind of an exercise - and today it's a beloved piece of music.
I believe that Bach wrote his "Toccata and Fuga" with similar intentions: it was meant to test an organ after maintenance or tuning. So now it is a masterpiece. Strange, eh?
It happens all the time. More modern, similar stories exist. So what's my point? Even though the Bolero has this history, it's still a masterful piece. And not only because of movies like "10" or "Les uns et les autres".

cheers,
Rob.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #22 –
...
Quote
how get an organ sound without an organ - the section where the sax has the tune, and one piccolo is a 12th above, and the other piccolo is a 17th above, simulating a mutation stop on a pipe organ.
Isn't it a horn with celeste playing "fifths" above and piccolo a 17th above?  Don't have a score handy, but that's what's in my memory...

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #23 –
Quote from: K.A.T. –
... Isn't it a horn with celeste playing "fifths" above and piccolo a 17th above?  Don't have a score handy, but that's what's in my memory...

Don't say I've mis-remembered!  Here's what Wikipedia says:

"While the melody continues to be played in C throughout, from the middle onwards other instruments double it in different keys. The first such doubling involves a horn playing the melody in C, while a celeste doubles it 2 and 3 octaves above and two piccolos play the melody in the keys of G and E, respectively. This functions as a reinforcement of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th overtones of each note of the melody. The other significant "key doubling" involves sounding the melody a 5th above or a 4th below, in G major. Other than these "key doublings," Ravel simply harmonizes the melody using diatonic chords."

So, we've both got it not quite right!  Horn at pitch, 15th and 22nd celeste, 12th or 19th piccolo, 17th or 24th piccolo (I suspect the upper octaves).  Wikipedia states 1st overtone, which is the second harmonic, which would be the 8ve, but none of the instruments listed plays an octave.  I agree a check of the score is needed.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #24 –
I wonder how the naturally occurring out of tune characteristics of a horn influence the sound of a chord played by horn, celeste and piccolos? 

There's a discussion of brass intonation here:
http://music.ou.edu/applied/horn/intonation.html

Quote
One notices that as the series progresses, the overtones become closer together. After the sixteenth overtone, pitches are one-half step apart and continue to meld into a final gliss.

Another property that is peculiar are doublings of numbers (1-2-4-8, 3-6-12, etc.) produce octaves. Thus octaves keep the same intonation tendencies. 2 According to equal temperament, all octaves coming off the fundamental are in tune. All octaves based on the third overtone are slightly sharp while the octaves of the fifth overtone are noticeably flat. The ninth overtone is only slightly sharp and is used on occasion by brass players.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #25 –
First the glib bit - you can guarantee you'll get the out of tune characteristics of a horn - there are two piccolos!

As for the "third overtone octaves are sharp, fifth overtone - flat" bit:  It could be argued that according to just temperament. all octaves above the equal temperament fifth (i.e. E, or the third "overtone", assuming the piano is tuned to A440) are slightly flat, and all octaves above the third (C# or fifth overtone) are noticebly sharp!  Brass and string players probably would (and would complain that the accompanying piano is out of tune, especially in flat keys).

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #26 –
Our fairly new conductor spent a few tuning sessions trying to educate us on the characteristics of brass tuning.  Being a reed player, I didn't really pay a lot of attention, except feel good that if I was a little flat on my high notes, it was probably a good thing...

The rest of it is truly over my head.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #27 –
A couple of observations on brass. First, if you want to get a really good feel for the overtone series and how it relates to brass instruments, listen to the opening and closing horn solos in Benjamin Britten's Serenade for Tenor, Horn, and Strings, in which the horn player is instructed to play without valves. The entire melody is played on overtones, the way horn players used to play up through the Baroque (trumpet players, too, by the way - Bach's trumpet parts were written to be played without valves). Second, if you want to get a really good laugh, listen to Mozart's Musical Joke, in which the horn players are given exquisitely wrong notes to play - exactly the notes you would expect to hear if bad horn players were trying to play a different (but recognizable) passage properly.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #28 –
Is there a good resource for one to study all this overtone stuff?  I don't really understand it all.

Thanks!

Al Doug

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #29 –
G'day Al,
Quote from: AlDoug –
Is there a good resource for one to study all this overtone stuff?  I don't really understand it all.

It isn't really that hard.  The biggest problem is probably nomenclature.

For all practical purposes:
Overtones = Harmonics = Partials = Overblowing

Now, lets consider a Trumpet.  The lowest "open" I.E. no valves down, note on a trumpet is a concert Bb just below middle C though the trumpeter will call it a C.  For the purpose of this description we're also gonna call it a C.  The note that the trumpet makes is defined by the length of the tubing.  There are other factors involved but for the purpose of this explanation the length is the only consideration aside from the players lips.

This C is ctually the 2nd harmonic of the instruments "fundamental" frequency.  The fundamental or 1st harmonic is the C an octave down and is usually only obtainable by players who have developed their emboucher somewhat... :)  It is also commonly called a "pedal" C

The next note is the 3rd harmonic - a G
The next is the 4th harmoinic - the next C
Then you get E, G a sharp A and then C again

OK, so lets just "make a list":

HarmonicNote
1stC
2ndC
3rdG
4thC
5thE
6thG
7tha slightly sharp A
8th"top" C
This is considered a "normal" range - there are good trumpeters that can go way beyond "top C".

The same relationships hold when you use valve combinations for other notes.  Depressing valves adds tubing to the length of the horn.  the 1st valve adds enough tube for a change of 1 tone, the 2nd valve adds enough for a semitone and the 3rd valve adds enough for 3 semitones.  With combinations of valves you get a full chromatic series from F# below "middle" C to as high as you can play.  The only problem here is that when using combinations of valves you start getting sharp.  I won't go into the reasons here as it is fairly complex.

These different harmonics are achieved by the player changing the tension in his/her lips and the air velocity - the faster you blow the easier is is to get higher notes 'cos your lips will vibrate faster more easily - you also get LOUDER.  Good players can get very high notes without having to play excessively loud - in fact they can often play relatively quietly but it takes a good lip.

If you like, you can imagine that the players lips are like a rubber band - the more you stretch it the higher the note produced gets.  All same the players lips when the muscle tension is increased.

The instrument will naturally support certain frequencies of vibration and not others - this is called "slotting".  A good horn will "slot" closely to the correct harmonics and thus give good intonation.  A very good horn will slot easily but still allow the player to "lip" up or down to create effects easily.

Poor horns don't slot well or slot off key.

As you can see from the table, the notes get closer.  You reach a point up around the 11th or 12th harmonic where no valves are really required and all the notes can be "lipped"  I.E. the "slots" dissapear.  This is how Horns were originally played before they got valves.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Writing a Symphony

Reply #30 –
The following link from a multiple tempo user tip tries to follow the overtones up from the C below the bass clef: here.
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