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Input Methods

I've been wondering about the best method for using NWC's (computer) keyboard note entry. Having started using noteworthy on a laptop, I never thought about using the number pad. Currently I use my right hand on the arrow keys, and my left hand to push [Enter], [Tab], [Space] and practically all other settings such as note duration and properties.

This was all fine, until I tried to input "Drowsy Maggie" from memory (I didn't have any music available at the time). I found that my normal method of inserting each note sequentially led to lots of [up arrow] and [down arrow] presses (due to large number of fifths in the melody). I found inputting a large number of fifths (melodically) rather cumbersome.

This led me to explore other options on the market, and one of the discoveries was alphabetic input. Both the Sibelius and Finale Free downloads had this feature, and (the thing I was really interested in) Denemo (GUI for Lillypond) also had this function (I didn’t manage to find a build for windows, however)
My questions are:
1.   What are the most efficient methods of note entry using the computer keyboard (what should each hand be doing?)
2.   Some general thoughts on “Alphabetic note entry”

Thanks in advance (and sorry if this has already been covered elsewhere)

Re: Input Methods

Reply #1 –
G'day Globbilink,
I guess this is largely personal preference, but I've tried the alphabetic note entry style and I hate it.  It definitely slows my transcription speed, but that is, of course, a personal thing.

To enter 5ths a little quicker, instead of <up-arrow> 4 times, try <Ctrl-up> followed by <Down-Arrow> 3 times - it ends up being the same number of keystrokes but the change can lessen the fatigue a little.  Don't laugh, I do this often enough to be able to know it does work.  Another good trick to know is the <0> key.  Defaults to Pos 0 (B on a treble staff), crotchet duration and resets other things like ties and slurs etc..

If you enter a first line E, press <0>, there's a 5th...  Won't always be that easy, but there are alternatives that help.

I use various areas of the keyboard, somtimes numeric pad sometimes not just to vary the hand/finger motion to reduce fatigue.

Another thing you could consider is copy and paste similar figures - the don't have to be the same notes if the intervals are the same, just copy the section and move it up or down.

For me, the key is variation of motion - this is what helps reduce fatigue which in turn increases speed.

Lawrie's AUD $0.02 - :)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #2 –
Hi, Globbilink -

I just took a look at the melody line, and (granted you were doing it from memory rather then from printed music, which can make a difference) one of the things I do a lot in these situations is to just enter the notes that are close to each other, then come back and fill in.  CTRL-Left moves back one bar, so it doesn't take too long.

So in the key of E-minor, the the first two bars being:

E-B-B-E-B-B-E-B-B-D-A-F#-D

I would then enter (in the first bar) two 8th note E's, and in the 2nd bar one 8th note E.
Then back up and insert one 8th note B (after the first E) followed by a quarter note B.
Then the same thing again after the 2nd E, then again after the 3rd E.
Then finally the D-A-F#-D which puts me back in position to enter E's again.

Like I said, though, having the music in front of you makes it easier to visualize how to do this, but hopefully you see the point.  Don't know if it is any faster in the end, but it does offer a variation and you don't have to run up and down the staff a bunch of times.

Just a thought.
John

Re: Input Methods

Reply #3 –
I find Ctrl+Up and Ctrl+Down quite useful for moving up/down an octave. so I fired up Recorder.exe and created 2 macros:
  • Alt+Up = {Up}{Up}{Up}{Up}
  • Alt+Down = {Down}{Down}{Down}{Down}
Saved it as UpDown5.rec
Works just fine. Thanks for the inspiration. Took me longer to type this reply than to create, test and save the macros.

Recorder.exe is available from the Scripto.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Input Methods

Reply #4 –
In cases like this, with lots of fifths or fourths, I use the left hand for selecting note length and the right hand for up/down arrow. Four times down with my right hand middle finger is quite fast. Or up, for that matter. An octave is Ctrl-Up or Ctrl-Down; that helps a lot on S-A-T-B pieces, in the bass part. Bass parts tend to have more fourths and fifths than sopranos, altos and tenors. I am quite happy (and fast) using this method.
But maybe I could put Recorder to good use!

Re: Input Methods

Reply #5 –
I use an articulated keyboard (Microsoft Natural), so I have to do things a little differently than on a regular one.  However, I would never try to use the kb on my laptop - it comes with a plug innable external ib.

Even though I'm left handed, most of my note entry is with my right hand.  I don't flex my wrist much, because my elbow is resting on the armrest of my chair so my arm pivots comfortably, allowing my fingers to reach anything on the right side of the alpha pad or the number pad.  My left hand does the control, alt, tabs, explanation mark, etc. 

When I enter music, my left hand usually holds the sheet I'm copying from, or tracking my place on the page.  My right arm pivots back and forth, and I sort of bounce back and forth between the <number> pad and the <enter> key for the notes.  My right thumb slaps the space bar as needed.  The mouse sits off to my right, and I use it sometimes if it seems convenient, usually to click some of the icons at the top of my screen. 

All together, the back and forth movement is about 4 inches from the number pad to the enter key, and I sometimes use a bit of a rocking motion if I'm entering rests of varying length.

Changing pitch is almost invisible to me.  I think I just hold the arrows in place and they move.  I guess I have a pretty good sense of when to quit pressing the arrow, so I get "almost" there, then maybe adjust by one more up or down stroke.

The control key and shift key combinations are a little awkward, because I do them all with my left hand, so the fingers get a little twisted.  But it's infrequent, so it's not a problem.

Gotta run... band awaits.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #6 –
Hi All,
Thanks for all the ideas, they are much appreciated. (I’ll try to remember that you can actually use [ctrl] to move by an octave or bar)
Lawrie, did you get that idea about variation from an OH&S course by any chance? (It really reminds me of this OH&S thing I had to do recently)
Rick (or anyone else who uses macros for that matter) thanks for pointing out recorder, but since the computer I’m currently using is running Vista, I can’t get to the help file to see why I can’t get it to work or what I’m doing wrong. Do you know if it is able to run on Vista? (I’ll try it on a XP computer sometime)

However, I do have a macro-enabled keypad (belkin nostromo n52) I have tried mapping a key sequence to this before, but I found using only one hand too hard (I couldn’t get my head round using a keyboard and a separate keypad). The keypad is for the left hand, with numbered keys that match [Q] to [V] Any Ideas on what I could map to these buttons? (My hand feels a bit lost in a sea of buttons labelled 1-15 and then the four “modes” that the pad can be in)

David, if I’m correct then you should have an [enter] key as part of the number pad... (I played around with a natural keyboard once, I have no idea where it is now) is there any reason why you don’t use that key? Also, how do you select note durations? Do you switch number lock on and off?

I’ll go and try out these ideas now I suppose... (being a violinist/violist, all notation interfaces I’ve used so far seem a bit clunky, but I have to say noteworthy has the best that I’ve used so far)

Re: Input Methods

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Globbilink –
(I’ll try to remember that you can actually use [ctrl] to move by an octave or bar)
You should (try). I do a lot of flute parts for my wife. It is very helpful to be able to use Ctrl+Down to see what the pitch is.

Quote from: Globbilink –
Rick (or anyone else who uses macros for that matter) thanks for pointing out recorder, but since the computer I’m currently using is running Vista, I can’t get to the help file to see why I can’t get it to work or what I’m doing wrong. Do you know if it is able to run on Vista? (I’ll try it on a XP computer sometime)
Yours is the first report I know of on Vista. Recorder.exe is known to work on XP, 98, 95 and of course, Windows 3.1
Make sure Noteworthy is running with a blank score.
Run Recorder.exe. You should get a Window entitled: Recorder - (Untitled).
If that works, try: Macro->Record ...
Fill that out like the attachment, then: Start

Recorder will minimize itself. Use the mouse to get Noteworthy back on top and press the Up Arrow key 4 times. Use the mouse to restore Recorder. You should be able to figure the rest out.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Input Methods

Reply #8 –
I can heartily recommend a Prodikey keyboard (there's a USB version available now). Just play the notes with the left hand and alter duration, articulation etc with the right. Enters chords too. Minor problem with enharmonic spellings occasionally though.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #9 –
Rick,
Thanks for the quick reply. I tried your instructions on an XP computer, and they worked perfectly. However, when I carried out the same procedure on the Vista computer, I got the following error message:
"The events you carried out were ignored. Use the Preferences command to change the Record Mouse option, and then try again." I tried modifying the procedure slightly but didn’t manage to get any different results or error messages.

I’ve tried:
1.   running the program with administrator privileges
2.   Setting compatibility for XP (SP2)
3.   Setting compatibility for Windows 95

I would conclude that windows Vista does not support the recorder program.


Peter,
I looked at the prodikey keyboard a while back, and was seriously going to get it, but I finally decided against it since my piano skills are rather poor. Being a violinist/violist, I actually get approximately the same speed from a computer keyboard until I have to do chords (and then there’s the question of accuracy). I do have a midi keyboard, but it plugs in through the joystick/midi port on a sound card. Those ports don't seem to exist on newer computers... Thanks for the suggestion though (I might go get one once I’m sure that USB will last... I’ve heard rumours about the next major USB standard being wireless and I don’t want another keyboard that has an outdated port)

Re: Input Methods

Reply #10 –
G'day Globbilink,
Quote from: Globbilink –
<snip>
Lawrie, did you get that idea about variation from an OH&S course by any chance? (It really reminds me of this OH&S thing I had to do recently)
<snip>

No, just personal experience.  Though being in the IT industry one must be aware of OH&S issues as they relate to PC usage...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #11 –
Quote
Do you switch number lock on and off?

My Numlock key is always on, my default setting.  I don't need the direction controls on the number pad because there is a set of arrow keys and a cluster of the other direction keys between the number and alpha keys. 


Quote
David, if I’m correct then you should have an [enter] key as part of the number pad... is there any reason why you don’t use that key?   Also, how do you select note durations?

The number pad is built into the right end of the keyboard, as it is with a regular kb.  See the illustration at the top of this page http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=022

I think I use the four arrow keys as home keys, resting my right fingers lightly on them.  My forefinger and ring finger rest on the left and right arrows, and my middle finger rests on the up arrow.  At most, I just have to move the middle finger about half an inch to press the down arrow.  Left and right just require pressing where those fingers currently sit.

Note duration is simply a matter of pivoting my arm to the right a few degrees, without bending my wrist.  The <5> has a home key bump, making it easy to find by feel, and the <0> key is large.   I enter the numbers by feel - it's like touch typing  (I was a bellhop and wanted to learn to do the hotel night audit, I decided to improve my skill on the adding machine (this was before calculators were invented).  I practiced by adding up the numbers in the phone directory. Silly, perhaps, but I have never since had to hunt for the numbers...and I got my promotion to boot!)  

Anyway, to get back to the process:

First step, I press the correct arrow key to get where I want to enter the note. Then move my arm about 2 inches right and drop a finger on the number key I want, then sort of bounce back to the <enter> key, to hit it with my forefinger.  If I need a rest instead, my hand travels about 2 inches further left and my thumb strikes the space bar.  So for notes or rests, my hand  simply moves in an efficient, ergonomic triangle, with no flex of my wrist.  I don't use the number pad <enter> key often, because it's not in the triangle.

Hope this helps.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #12 –
David,
I have a standard keyboard and find that I use virtually the same methods of entering as you do.

Tony

Re: Input Methods

Reply #13 –
I have NUMLOCK always off (in fact I jiggered XP so it is turned off on start-up).  Rather than use the number keys for selecting the note value I use the + and - keys, at the top right of the number keypad to run up and down the notes, just as the up and down arrow keys run up and down the staff.  This keep my hand in one position as long as I don't have to dot or accent the notes.  I'll have to watch myself and see how I do that, I don't seem to think about it, just do it.  Possibly I shift the left hand away from the TAB key.  The left hand is in charge of shifting, CTL-SFT, etc., and TAB and SPACE.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #14 –
Learn something every day!  I didn't realize you could change note values before input with the plus/minus keys.  That's cool, and thank you, Cyril.

Tony, I couldn't remember if I used the same techniques when I had a standard kb.  It's been 2 or 3 years, I imagine, since I bought this type.  I use one at work too, and the result has been clearing up the pain I used to get in my forearms.  A chordless optical mouse really helps too.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #15 –
I must be in the minor league, then. I always use the left hand for note lengths. My left hand middle finger is always near "3". More left hand actions:
Only Tab and Space. Since entering notes is done with the Enter key under F12, ties, slurs and dots are right handed actions. Quite close.
 

Re: Input Methods

Reply #16 –
I'm in the minor leagues too.  But I also use LH for shift, ctrl and shft-ctrl, (and for escape).  Never learned to use the right-"function" keys much.  My right-alt and right-shift are nearly as dusty as Scroll-Lock.  I do use right-ctrl-O to open files, particularly NWC files.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #17 –
Rob, I'm having trouble visualizing your keyboard.  Do you use a laptop with an onboard keyboard, or do you have a plugin number pad placed to your left? 

I have visions of a cross-handed technique if you don't.  Do you use your right hand, and how?

Re: Input Methods

Reply #18 –
If I’ve read correctly, Rob uses a similar technique to me. The left hand is placed on the number keys over the keyboard (Starting with [~] going across to [Backspace]) the right hand is placed on the arrow keys. [enter], [/], [.], [,] and so on are a matter of preference (I use my left hand for this, rob seems to use his right)

Re: Input Methods

Reply #19 –
I use both hands - left hand hovering over the 1, 2, 3, 4 on the top left of the keyboard, but ready to drop down to the shift, alt and ctrl keys on the bottom left, as needed.

I then keep the right hand over the left, right, up, down arrows (the middle ones, not the numeric keypad), then just use my right index or middle finger to hit ENTER (for notes), ";" for slurs, and "/" for ties, as well as backspace (to erase what I just did).  I use my left thumb for the space bar (rest).

Since I'm generally a touch typist, I do most of this without looking at the keyboard, instead keeping my eye on the screen or on the score I'm transcribing.  I'll often do 3 or 4 measures just looking at the score, and then check it for accuracy on the screen.

That works for me and those are habits long developed through many years of use (I think I started with NWC version 1.21 on a floppy disk).

You can click on this NWC history link to see how far back that was.
John

Re: Input Methods

Reply #20 –
Thanks John, I don't feel so alone now.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #21 –
I see. Thanks, guys.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #22 –
Similar--
Left  Hand
pinky on tab
next three digits on 2.3 & 4 - for durations
Thumb for space bar
ball of hand for hitting  ctrl or ctrl/shift simultaneously

Right Hand
Middle finger on enter
index for slur, ties, and dotted durations
pinky on arrows

Eyes on material I'm copying from. Occasional mouse use.

I notitice that this configuration would not work so well on my sons laptop though as the arrow buttons can't be reached by the right pinky.

Re: Input Methods

Reply #23 –
I wonder if hand size is a factor in how we use our keyboards for NWC?  I have big hands; when splayed it's 25.5 cm from the tip of my thumb to the tip of my little finger.  It's enough to touch piano keys a 13th apart, IIRC.

It thought it would be difficult for me to use Fitzclan's right hand positioning on a normal k.b., but I seem to be able to do it on the Natural, so I probably could on the regular one too.  Not being a pianist, I don't think I have the needed control over my little finger for the arrow keys.