Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Topic: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem (Read 10068 times) previous topic - next topic

Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

2007-08-21 04:48 pm

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #1 – 2007-08-21 06:41 pm

If you ask me, the bug is allowing this to occur. I do not believe that this is musically valid.
Also, yet another variation can be observed in:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4^
|Note|Dur:8th,Staccato|Pos:-4
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3^
|Note|Dur:8th,Staccato|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2^
|Note|Dur:8th,Staccato|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #2 – 2007-08-21 06:59 pm

If you tie a staccato note to another note, then the staccato has no practical effect on the note as it is played. We have no plans to change this, or to disallow it.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #3 – 2007-08-21 07:24 pm

When perfoming tied notes, the duration depends on a lot of context. I would argue that:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Instrument|Name:"Flute"|Patch:73
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0^
|Note|Dur:8th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th,Tenuto|Pos:0
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

should actually be perfomed more like this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Instrument|Name:"Flute"|Patch:73
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Tenuto|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Note|Dur:4th,Accent|Pos:0
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

IMO, it is too much to ask of NoteWorthy to analyze this and make an intelligent choice.

It would, however, be nice to have an option to have the duration of a tied note be the same as if it were one combined note. NWC is quite hostile to missing bar lines. One can work around it with:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Instrument|Name:"Flute"|Patch:73
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:8th
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

but it is such a kludge ...

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #4 – 2007-08-22 12:00 am

G'day Flurmy,
I've never seen the form in second bar of your example in print. I don't really see how it could be valid. It would be different if the notes were slurred rather than tied, but they ain't.

Kahman,
your example I have seen, but whether it should be played as it sounds in NWC, or more like the first bar in Flurmy's example I don't know... The definition in Alfred's of staccatto is: Short, detached. So I think I'd be inclined to expect it to be more like Flurmy's first bar, but I'm not really certain...

Rick,
I concur completely.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #5 – 2007-08-22 05:40 am

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #6 – 2007-08-22 06:41 am

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2007-08-22 05:40 am

staccato playback is not right

Depends on the instrument. Acoustic Bass is just about right. Any longer and it ceases to sound staccato:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Instrument|Name:"Acoustic Bass"|Patch:32
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato,Slur|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

On my sound card, measure 1 sounds right for a Bass. Measures 2 & 3 sound the same.
For most Woodwinds, Measure 2 sounds better than Measure 1

Itrees or Instrument could be expanded to allow different durations, but that would be a bit of complexity for an application that is not a full-fleged sequencer.

Where would it end? There is also staccatissimo and portato. Accent interpretation varies as well.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #7 – 2007-08-22 06:54 am

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2007-08-22 05:40 am

In something like 44 years of playing, I have never seen a tied pair of notes in printed music where the first note is staccato.

Nor do I! :-)

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2007-08-22 05:40 am

Why would anyone write it? It just doesn't make sense.

I agree, of course, but it was an artifact of a bar shifting in NWC2.
Indeed, as I wrote, I don't know how I would have read it.

Quote from: Rick G. – 2007-08-22 06:41 am

Depends on the instrument. Acoustic Bass is just about right. Any longer and it ceases to sound staccato:

On my sound card, measure 1 sounds right for a Bass. Measures 2 & 3 sound the same.
For most Woodwinds, Measure 2 sounds better than Measure 1

Itrees or Instrument could be expanded to allow different durations, but that would be a bit of complexity for an application that is not a full-fleged sequencer.

I endorse Rick's findings.

Thank you all.
Maurizio

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #8 – 2007-08-22 07:02 am

Personally, I prefer shorter notes for staccato. (Not that there's any difference on percussion. :-) But detached could be correct, although I would think that would be more portato than staccato. I'm probably wrong, but it seems to me to be a matter of preference.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #9 – 2007-08-22 07:29 am

Quote from: Flurmy – 2007-08-22 06:54 am

... it was an artifact of a bar shifting in NWC2.

Ah, a fixable problem at last!
Auditing Bar lines on this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:4th,Staccato|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

reveals a bug.
When splitting a note, duration articulations need to move to the last note.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #10 – 2007-08-22 09:43 am

Quote from: Rick G. – 2007-08-22 07:29 am

Ah, a fixable problem at last!
Auditing Bar lines on this:
<snip>
reveals a bug.
When splitting a note, duration articulations need to move to the last note.

I concur.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #11 – 2007-08-22 09:55 am

I think just the staccato. Certainly not the accent and probably not the tenuto. But in any case a note that is long enough to be tied probably wouldn't normally be staccato too since it could be notated much more precisely as a shorter note and rest.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #12 – 2007-08-22 10:36 am

Accent is not a duration articulation.
Visually, a Tenuto should be moved unless it is actually a weak accent (in which case it is not a duration articulation).

Note+rest might be more precise, but it uses twice the space. I play the piano. I'll trade some precision for fewer page turns. Folks playing other instruments may not.

Off-beat staccato quarter notes are common in jazz.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #13 – 2007-08-22 12:44 pm

Accent can affect duration, just as tenuto can affect volume (all a matter of interpretation). I don't believe either should appear anywhere but at the start of a tie since they both indicate a way of intepreting a note. A staccato on the other hand is making a much more precise indication and should therefore be on the final note.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #14 – 2007-08-22 01:57 pm

Quote

...I have never seen a tied pair of notes in printed music where the first note is staccato. Why would anyone write it? It just doesn't make sense.

Not making sense doesn't stop people from doing things. I have seen this notation in hand-written big band charts, the kind that looks as if it were written 15 minutes before performance. The first time we read through something like that, there is a train wreck, and we have to stop to determine what is meant by that notation. Another thing that bugs us, notationally speaking, is staccato dots on notes with augmentation dots. Using rests would be better (eighth note, sixteenth rest, sixteenth note instead of dotted-eighth note with staccato dot, sixteenth note - that just doesn't make sense...).

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #15 – 2007-08-22 03:33 pm

Music notation is a written language meant to communicate the composer's intention to the player. When you listen to a jazz musician explaining notation to a band, you'll hear him say things like "When you see this, it's always played like this in this style of music."

As long as the presentation is commonly understood, odd things like staccato dots on notes with augmentation dots are acceptable to avoid cluttering up the page.

It's where a symbol means only one thing and it is incorrectly used that there's a problem. The length of a staccato note is subject to interpretation, but I think most of us agree that regardless, it is never encountered on the first of a pair of tied notes (except KAT's example, where the copyist probaby wrote everything untied first, realized the mistake, and went back to add ties).

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #16 – 2007-08-22 09:45 pm

Quote from: Peter Edwards – 2007-08-22 12:44 pm

A staccato on the other hand is making a much more precise indication and should therefore be on the final note.

A specious argument. Why should precision determine location?
Articulations of force affect attack which happens at the beginning of the tone.
Articulations of duration affect the end of the tone.

But ambiguities abound. Consider the attachment.
I would think that the one at measure 2 is always wrong ~~but I am undecided about the others~~.

Upon due reflection, I have decided that measure 3 is visually wrong. It is also inconsistent with NWC's MIDI interpretation of tenuto.
FWIW, my vote would be for NWC2 to move Tenuto and Staccato to the last note when it splits notes.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #17 – 2007-08-24 06:45 am

Quote

Why should precision determine location?

So that it can be precise?

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #18 – 2007-08-27 04:09 am

Why so much discussion on this? The tie overrides the staccato, period. NoteWorthy Composer has always, to my knowledge, been primarily a composition/arrangement aid, not a virtuoso performer (dispite the wonderfull "Moonlight" in the examples directory). To expect it to interpret something someone once saw on some hand-written big band charts like "When you see this, it's always played like this in this style of music." is just plain unreasonable. Now if we could just get what we've written onto paper decently without going to a heavy duty engraving program...

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #19 – 2007-08-27 08:03 pm

Quote from: bidderxyzzy – 2007-08-27 04:09 am

Why so much discussion on this?

Mostly because we feel like discussing it, but partly because when NWC splits a note during Audit Bar Lines, it puts all articulations on the first note. NoteWorthy is a fairly good MIDI sequencer. There are full scores of major symphonies in the Scriptorium that rival the best MIDI files available.

Re: Staccato or not staccato: this is the problem

Reply #20 – 2007-08-28 07:19 pm

Quote

Mostly because we feel like discussing it

hits the note right on the head. We're a worldwide group of customers of NWC who like to explore the subjects of the software, music notation, and whatever. We sometimes get off topic, but we pretty much welcome anybody, and we help when and if we can. None of us gets paid for it, so we have some freedom to dwell on what we wish to.