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Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Quote
selection highlight on selected areas/notes does not always clear when moving the insertion point (either with the keyboard or the mouse.

I'm on Windows XP Pro, and I've had a problem since the very early days of the private betatest with the highlighted area refusing to clear, and then going wild - expanding with every movement of the mouse or right/left arrows.

This usually occurs after a heavy-duty edit, such as moving a large group of beamed notes up or down the staff.  In hindsight, I wonder if the change in stem direction as they crossed the middle line, or perhaps the need to add extra leger lines if the movement is in LegerLand, but I don't remember.  I think it happens also when I move other items (such as dynamics or text rehearsal letters) up or down a few times, too.  I think the program at those times is using too much memory too quickly. 

It usually resolves itself I just reduce the highlighted area to one note or rest, delete that, then Undo the delete. 

Sometimes, however, I have to reboot the computer to flush out memory, and that's a nuisance.



Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #1 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
... I've had a problem since the very early days of the private betatest with the highlighted area refusing to clear, and then going wild - expanding with every movement of the mouse or right/left arrows.
I've had this problem. Many times, Windows thinks that the shift key is down. Tapping it (the shift key, not Windows) a few times helps. I notice it most when running User Tools and other apps that send keystrokes.
Registered user since 1996

Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #2 –
Then it is a bug, since three of us appear to have somewhat similar problems. 

I reported it to Eric long ago, but he felt it was just something wrong with my system (hardware or software).  Other beta testers didn't experience the problem, so I accepted that.  However, it happened after I upgraded my equipment and operating system, too, and my upgraded system runs XPPro.

FWIW, I use a Microsoft Natural keyboard and I can't remember if it happened when I had the old fashioned one.

We appear to be able to work around it, so it's not a fatal bug, but it is annoying.

Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #3 –
Hi guys,
I've been following this thread with some interest...

I wonder if there is a common denominator other than NWC2?

David, I too use a natural keyboard - I do not have the problem you guys are reporting.

Perhaps there is some commonality in one of the follwing areas:
  • Video card/driver
  • Printer (Type)
  • Printer Driver (this is not necessarily obviated by the previous...)
  • Mouse driver (I suspect Logitech here)
  • Spyware (keylogger)
  • Display effects/animation selections (E.G. I have transition effects and menu shadows turned off)
  • User interface selection (E.G. I use a slightly modified "Windows Classic"
  • Other background services...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #4 –
Evening Folks;
   I also have experienced the problem, usually after a large cut and paste operation. I am using a Toshiba Portege tablet / notebook convertable runingXP Pro Tablet Version. As far as the rest of the items Lawrie mentioned nVIDIA G-FORCE™ FX Diplay and Driver, Lexmarx X3350 Scanner/printer with lexmark supplied driver, Logitec wheel mouse, display effects are off, modified windows classic interface.
   Has been more of an aggrivation than anything else. Though it would be nice to get it figured out and alliviated.

Keith
Illigitimi Non Carborundum

Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #5 –
Lawrie suggests there may be some commonality in one of the follwing areas:
Video card/driver
Printer (Type)
Printer Driver (this is not necessarily obviated by the previous...)
Mouse driver (I suspect Logitech here)
Spyware (keylogger)
Display effects/animation selections (E.G. I have transition effects and menu shadows turned off)
User interface selection (E.G. I use a slightly modified "Windows Classic"
Other background services...

Video card - well it happened on the old and new computer.  I'm not aware of having a special video card.
Printer - I'm not using the printer when it occurs.  Maybe its driver running in the background causes a problem.
Mouse driver - I use an optical cordless wheelmouse by Logitech, so could be.
Spyware - no, I'm pretty sure I don't have that.
Display effects/animation selections - I have them turned off too.
I too use slightly modified Windows Classic.
Other background services - could well be. 

The problem occurs when I give NWC a heavy job to do.  I think it just gets confused.  But whether or not it's a bug, it seems to be experienced by others, too, and that means it isn't just my setup.

Distractions such as having to correct the freeze up are not a problem for those who just copy music, but if you are composing as you notate, I imagine it could destroy a melodic idea if you get interrupted.

Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #6 –
G'day David,
looking over your spec.'s I think I'd look closely at the mouse driver.  I know, I know - what has the mouse driver to do with keyboard input?  Well, they're both part of the "Human Interface" subsystem and Logitech drivers are notorious for oddities.

So, if you can, I'd replace the Logitec driver with a MS one - even if you have to go to a MS mouse - and then test thoroughly.  If the problem recurs then you know its not the mouse driver - if it doesn't then its a fairly good bet that it is.  Only problem with intermittent faults is you never know for sure whether you've fixed it.

My next thing to consider is definitely the printer driver.  MS have the printer driver very closely associated with nearly everything presented in the gui so it is definitely worthy of suspicion...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #7 –
You're probably right, Lawrie, but it doesn't matter if I can fix my system or not, it's that more than one user has similar problems, and that means it's a bug.   

Many thanks for the suggestions.  I'm not going to follow through because it's more hassle than it's worth at the moment.  I can cope with the bug, and I'm great with technology - remember I'm the guy who blocked the vents on my CPU box, so it overheated?

As an aside, I chose Logitech because it was the largest mouse in the store and my hands are quite large (span 10 1/2 inches or IIRC, a thirteenth on a piano).

My printer works well, as does PDFCreator, so I'm not going to fiddle with them. 


Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #8 –
G'day David,
I take your point - there absolutely is a bug, but is it in NWC or elsewhere?  If NWC then I would expect everyone to be reporting it.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #10 –
There are two types of selection confusion that can happen in NWC:

  • A selection artifact can remain on screen, even though nothing is really selected.

    This is generally caused by a bug in the display driver that does not handle device context inversion properly. This can be cleared by using F9, and often can also be fixed by turning down acceleration as described at:

    FAQ - Disappearing Staff Lines
    http://ntworthy.com/composer/faq/77.htm

  • The selection grows and shrinks with every move of the insertion point.

    This happens when Windows reports to NWC that the Shift key is being held (or the primary mouse button). This can be caused by a faulty keyboard, buggy BIOS, or a software error. If it is not a hardware problem, a restart might clear this up.

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #12 –
Quote from: NoteWorthy Online –
  • The selection grows and shrinks with every move of the insertion point.
    This happens when Windows reports to NWC that the Shift key is being held (or the primary mouse button). This can be caused by a faulty keyboard, buggy BIOS, or a software error. If it is not a hardware problem, a restart might clear this up.
Tapping the Shift key a few times sometimes helps. Ditto for Control key problems.

Putting the keyboard status (Shift, Control, etc.) on the status bar might assist users in diagnosing this problem.

Adding a full keyboard reset to the F9 routine might help. I'm assuming that these new versions of Windows will allow a keyboard reset.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #13 –
Quote
Putting the keyboard status (Shift, Control, etc.) on the status bar might assist users in diagnosing this problem.

My keyboard and others I have used, IIRC, have lights to indicate the status.  I think my laptop at work has no lights but shows the keyboard status on the bottom margin of the screen.  But I'm not at work to check just now...

If it's the norm for there already to be a keyboard status indicator, maybe it isn't also needed in NWC, unless it might not report the same status.  That would be a real indicator of a misfunction.

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #14 –
G'day David,
the lights you're thinking of are:
caps lock, num lock and scroll lock. Shift, ctrl and alt do not have lights.

The problem you describe suggests that the shift status is being "lost" - this is not uncommon in Windows and Rick's suggestion of tapping the shift key (should be both of 'em actually - the keyboard BIOS treats them separately) a couple of times should reset the status.

If you could use an MS mouse driver for the Logitech mouse instead of the Logitech one I bet the problem would go away...  Though I have been known to be wrong...  ;)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #15 –
Does Microsoft have a driver for a "Logitech Cordless Click! Optical Mouse."  It sends a radio signal to a small receiver that plugs into a USB port.  The mouse itself has 4 buttons (left, right, and a centre one, plus a clickable wheel).  It uses a red light on the bottom to detect movement (I think that's pretty common) and it has a transparent red sensor on each side that detects the presence of my hand, allowing it to sleep when I'm not using it.

If there is such a driver, where would I find it?  I wouldn't want to install a generic one that doesn't run the features the proprietary driver does.  That's the sort of thing that happens at work.  To address security and support issues in a large organization, we are not allowed to instal our own software, and the IT people will only instal software that has been thoroughly approved and tested at HQ.

 
My question is rhetorical, Lawrie, since playing with accessories and software to drive them usually causes me grief (and money).  I won't be changing because I've learned how to cope with the problem.  Thanks for offering the suggestion.

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #16 –
I have a Logitech which almost matches yours.  It doesn't have the side-sensors, but it does has seven small bottons on the left, two where the thumb (right-hand) can actuate them, four (one a rocker, so I counted it as two) along the side of the left button.  I must confess that I've never used any of those, though.  I may have installed some software for it on my desk-top, but on my laptop, running XP Pro, I just plugged the antenna in and away it went.

Cyril

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
If you could use an MS mouse driver for the Logitech mouse instead of the Logitech one I bet the problem would go away... 
I have the "sticky shift" problem with both of my Micro$oft mice.  I think NW Support has it right - Windows reports an incorrect keyboard status.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Insertion Point/Selection Confusion

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
I have the "sticky shift" problem with both of my Micro$oft mice. 

Hmm, I never run into it with m$ mouse and driver...  ditto m$ keyboard and driver... 

Quote
I think NW Support has it right - Windows reports an incorrect keyboard status.

That is certainly the end result - I suspect it ends up being a timing issue somewhere as the root cause...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.