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Topic: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano" (Read 32527 times) previous topic - next topic

labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

the title is essentially my question:  i want it to print so that both of those parts share one name as "piano" rather than them both being labeled separately.


i also have another question:  in my "print preview," and even when i converted it to PDF, some of the lines, meaning bar lines and lines of staff were sometimes bold.  it looks very awkward.  does this happen to anyone else?

another question:  i am writing a bit of my piece an octave lower than i want played to reduce a lot of ledger lines.  i know i can add the 8va----- in text, but the section in which im doing this is pretty long and when i keep on adding text of "- - - - - - - - - - " to show that the section is still going, its not always a continuous line and sometimes the dashes even combine to make a straight line.  has anyone ever found a way to solve this?

thanks in advance, i appreciate your help.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #1
the title is essentially my question:  i want it to print so that both of those parts share one name as "piano" rather than them both being labeled separately.

Not in NWC1.75.  The staff labels are created from the staff names.  However, you could create staff names using <Alt-0160> (no break space characters) - a different number of them for each hand - in order for the space required to be created, and then place a text entry in the appropriate place...


Quote
i also have another question:  in my "print preview," and even when i converted it to PDF, some of the lines, meaning bar lines and lines of staff were sometimes bold.  it looks very awkward.  does this happen to anyone else?

Your PDF engine may be having some problems...  Some of the other guys have more experience here, but I'd try a different PDF creator...

Quote
another question:  i am writing a bit of my piece an octave lower than i want played to reduce a lot of ledger lines.  i know i can add the 8va----- in text, but the section in which im doing this is pretty long and when i keep on adding text of "- - - - - - - - - - " to show that the section is still going, its not always a continuous line and sometimes the dashes even combine to make a straight line.  has anyone ever found a way to solve this?

If you check out the helpful files section on the Scripto: http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Fonts I have produced some font suites that
contain characters that are designed specifically for this.  The suites are: SwingDings, MusikDingsSans and MusikDingsSerif.

Change a font to the chosen *Text font and create a text entry using that font.

The relevant characters are:
Ò <alt-0210>   
Ó <alt-0211>   
Ô <alt-0212>  
Õ <alt-0213>

These give upper or lower dashed lines and up or down "hooks" for the end bits.  They come from the *Text fonts within the suites.

They aren't perfect and you will have to swap between edit and preview mode to see how they'll look in the printout but they shouldn't cause problems when they overlap.

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - 'n I'm lernin' tubies now too

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #2
If you want to have a direct method of properly labeling both of the piano staffs as "piano", you can use NoteWorthy Composer 2, mark the top staff's label as "Piano", and give the bottom staff an empty label.

About the inconsistency in bar line width, I believe this is an artifact created by errors in zooming.  I recommend that you zoom in farther.

Lawrie is correct about the work-around for the 8va.  He would know more about his fonts than I would.  <Image Link>

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #3
Thanks for all your help.  The font stuff went WAY WAY over my head so I may just print out the score and do the dashed lines by hand.  Also, the problems with randomly bolded lines aren't only with my PDF creator, they're also with my print preview, so I don't think its the creator's fault.  I also don't have NWC 2, so I can't do that thing with the labeling staffs.  I will probably do that manually, too. 

I am a noob.  But thanks anyway!

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #4
You can get NWC2 with the link I provided.  It's well worth it.  (If you don't think so, I'll give you some topics listing the advantages.  :-))

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #5
G'day Andrew,
I understand about being new...

The font thingy isn't as hard as it seems...  If you look at |File|Page Setup| you get a dialogue box with tabs.  Select the "Fonts" tab and you have access to change the fonts used by different parts of the program.

E.G. Staff Lyric is the font used when you write lyrics. 
There is a full list in the help...

Now, you can set these fonts to anything that is installed in your system.  Suppose you don't like the Times New Roman default.  Thats fine, you can simply change any or all of 'em to, say Arial, AND they don't all have to be the same...

My suggestion to you was to simply select one of the fonts and change it to one of my supplied ones.  Of course, you need to download, unzip and install 'em first.

Once installed, you could change, say User1, to MusikTextSerif - this being close enough to Times New Roman for your purposes.

Then you place a text entry - you already know how - and select the characters I've already suggested.  The easy way to do this is download and install Typecase as suggested in the doco in the font suites, but you can always use the extended ASCII codes as well.

So, the <Alt-0210> (Press and hold the <Alt> key while typing in <0210> on the numeric keypad -when you release the <Alt> key, the character designated by the code will appear) is a dashed line that will overlap without (I hope - that's how I designed it anyhow) becoming a solid line.  <Alt-0212> will give you the downward "hook" at the right end.

The <Alt-0160> character mentioned for staff labels is simply a "no break space".  This is effectively an empty character...  It allows you to use up horizontal space without having to place printable characters.  You need a different number of 'em for each staff or NWC will complain that 2 staves have the same name.

This will take up the horizontal space you need so that there is room for a printed, text label that you can position using the normal insert text dialogue.

As for the bolded lines etc. in PDF's and print preview - that could be your printer driver.  What kind of printer do you have?  What resolution is the driver set to?  How are you producing the PDF's in the first place?

NWC2 is a worthwhile upgrade.  It is still currently in beta so you have to sign up as a beta tester to gain access, but it behaves very well.  If you check out the NWC2 discussions, you will see that some of 'em get quite "techo", but you can also see the advances that have been made as well as the requests for improvement that often come out.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - 'n I'm lernin' tubies now too


Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #7
Contents deleted - KAT's solution is better than mine was.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #8
Lawrie's reply is pretty much what you need:
...you could create staff names using <Alt-0160> (no break space characters) - a different number of them for each hand - in order for the space required to be created, and then place a text entry in the appropriate place...
except I don't use a text entry anymore.  A while back, someone here (can't remember just now, and don't have time to do a search...) showed how to do this differently.  Add a third staff named Piano, placed between the two normal staves.  The third staff should have Lines: 0.

HTH

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #9
Add a third staff named Piano, placed between the two normal staves.  The third staff should have Lines: 0.

Very neat - I like it - just a small addendum - you need to adjust the staff upper and lower "Vertical Size" to 1.  This is done in the same dialogue as setting the number of lines - |Staff|Properties|Visual (Tab)|

'tis also necessary to fill the staff with hidden whole rests so that the barlines will be continuous
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - 'n I'm lernin' tubies now too

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #10
Neat idea, but can you still put a brace around it?

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #11
...you need to adjust the staff upper and lower "Vertical Size" to 1. 

'tis also necessary to fill the staff with hidden whole rests so that the barlines will be continuous
You are correct, sir.
I guess I assumed all of you could read my mind on those points.  ;-)

Quote
but can you still put a brace around it?
Yes, you can.  Simply leave the middle staff as Standard.

You will also need to add a clef to the middle staff so that you don't end up with a strange gap before the other clefs.  This clef will need to be highlighted white.

If I've forgotten anything else, just read my mind.  :-P

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #12
Here's a template with both methods.
Enable either Group: Kbd2 or Kbd3

I prefer the Kbd2 method, but it does require some twiddling if you change Staff or Font parameters.

The Kbd3 method intentionally shows what happens if you don't fully populate the middle staff.
Registered user since 1996

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #13
Thanks for all your comments...I really appreciate it.

I downloaded NWC2 and have found that there are many improvement to my liking.  Lawrie, I also downloaded one or two of your fonts to help me with the 8va.  But after days of trying to get it right, I still can't get the 8va and dashed lines to work.  One huge problem with NWC is that you can't insert text wherever you want.  At least not horizontally.  You can line it up on the staff vertically as they give you placement numbers like 5, 6, 7, etc.  But there is no way to get text horizontally where it is needed.  Unless I'm missing something major.  Thanks again for your help.

Andrew

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #14
G'day Andrew,
pleased you're looking at my fonts - that's always gratifying for me to know.

Horizontal placement isn't that hard, though a little limited...

When you place a text object click on the "Expression Placement" tab.

This will give you access to:
Staff Position - vertical location
Preserve Width - whether the text object uses up horizontal space or not
Justification - Left, Centre or Right justified - all same as any text editor
Alignment/Placement:
  • Best Fit
  • Best Fit Forward
  • As Staff Signature
  • At Next Note/Bar

Quote from the help text:

best fit: The item will be placed in the system in the most efficient way possible. It will tend to stay near the note, bar, or signature that precedes it, unless obstructed by a prior item.

best fit forward: The item will be placed in the system in the most efficient way possible. It will tend to stay near the next note, bar, or signature that appears after it in the staff.

as a staff signature: The item will be treated as a staff signature. It will be aligned in the system with any other signature item appearing in other staves at the same horizontal position.

at next note/bar: The item will be shifted forward such that it appears at the start of the next note or bar line. In the editor, a dashed line to the anchor position will be shown


I regularly use all alignment options except "as a staff signature" - that one seems unpredictable and I don't often get what I expect... :(

The one I use most of all it "at next note/bar".

There are times when I find I need to pad my expression with spaces to get the exact alignment I want - this isn't a problem but can take a little experimentation.

<edit>
The above is from NWC2, the NWC1 options are different:
  • best fit
  • before other staff signatures
  • after other staff signatures
  • at next note/bar
</edit>

Remember that the print preview is the most accurate way of determining what the end result will be, the edit window is not WYSIWYG and can be somewhat misleading.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - 'n I'm lernin' tubies now too

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #15
Quote
KAT's solution is better than mine was.
I don't want to take credit for that (well, I do want to...).
I found it here in the forum some time ago (can't find it again, and no more time for searching...).

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #16
I thought that two staves with a brace was understood to be piano. Is it generally labeled as well? And I don't recall seeing the right and left hands labeled seperately except for instructional purposes.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #17
G'day fitzclan,
Occasionally it is labelled as well.  In NWC1.75 you can only label each staff, regardless whether they are part of a grand staff or not.  NWC2 changed this behaviour.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - 'n I'm lernin' tubies now too

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #18
Also, in orchestral or band scores it is common for two instruments of the same type to share a grand staff.  For instance, typically the 2 clarinet parts share a grand staff within their orchestral brace. (Which should be divided by the section, but that's a whole other topic that we don't need to get into here.)

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #19
Quote
I thought that two staves with a brace was understood to be piano.
It could also be Harp, Marimba, Celeste, or Harpsichord, or even a few others I can't think of right now.
Best to label everything.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #20
Choruses are also set off by "Grand Staff" braces, especially if there are multiple choruses.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #21
This may seem a bit simplistic but I just label the Right hand Pia-
and the Left Hand                                                         no

I looks OK in most scores

Cheers

Snark

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #22
Ahh, lateral thinking - I like it!
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals 'n youfonymums - 'n I'm lernin' tubies now too

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #23
[glow=blue,10,300]     Grammar Police!!![/glow]

You're under arrest, Snark.

This may seem a bit simplistic but I just label the Right hand Pia-
and the Left Hand                                                         no

According to Houghton-Mifflin,

Quote
·  Do not hyphenate a word if only one or two letters remain on a line. 
  Error    a- side  remonstrat- ed 
 Revised    aside  remon- strated

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #24
Well, I would allow it.
For the Snark was a Boojum, you see.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #25
Love the graphic, Bob.  I think the hyphen rule is more a rule for when to break a word, not necessarily when to hyphenate per se.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #26
I think Bob's arrest was meant to be funny only.
But, then, someone who calls himself Snark has something coming.

In the midst of the word he was trying to say
In the midst of his laughter and glee
He had softly and suddenly vanished away
For the snark was a Boojum, you see.    (last stanza of Fit the 8th)
==================================================
Tempt me not, for I fear I will lash out with a frumious Bandersnatch.
Rob.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #27
My wife's late father used to occasionally quote something about the Bandersnatch.  I think it started something like

Mimsy was the borogrove...

 but I don't recall much about it.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #28
I, as a non-standard Dutchman, know the whole thing by heart, give or take the odd misspelling - but that's where the Spelling and Grammar police come in. No sense in typing it out here, it's all over the Internet.
At home I have "The Annotated Alice" which is not a simplified form of Alice's Adventures Underground but the whole story (two, really, don't forget Through the Looking Glass) plus an enormous lot of background information.
Needless to say, but I'll do it anyway, next to Alice there's the Annotated Snark. Which I do not know by heart, but I know at least 10 stanzas.
"Mad Magazine" from time to time sported spoofs of/on politicians where they used and abused the Jabberwocky. It's kind of fun to know a thing or two about it.

I don't play the piano, so I cannot very well get us back on topic. Can you?

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #29
I don't play the piano, so I cannot very well get us back on topic. Can you?
I do play the piano, but I see little reason to get back on topic. I cannot think of anything more to say on this topic that was not covered <here>.
Registered user since 1996

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #30
Love the graphic, Bob.  I think the hyphen rule is more a rule for when to break a word, not necessarily when to hyphenate per se.

It's actually not a graphic, but formatted text.  Here's the code:
Code: [Select · Download]
[glow=blue,10,300][color=red][b][i][size=7]     Grammar Police!!![/size][/i][/b][/color][/glow]

Something I learned how to do while adminning forums.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #31
My wife's late father used to occasionally quote something about the Bandersnatch.  I think it started something like

Mimsy was the borogrove...

 but I don't recall much about it.


That must be part of Lewis Carroll's Jabberwocky.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #32
Thanks, that sounds right, Bob.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #33
't Was brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe
All mimsy were the borogoves
And the mome raths outgrabe.

Beware the Jabberwock, my son,
the jaws that bite, the claws that catch,
Beware the Jubjub bird, ans shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!

He took his vorpal sword in hand
Long time the manxome foe he sought
So rested he by the tumtum tree
And stood a while in thought.

And, in an uffish thought he stood
The jabberwock, with eyes of flame
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood
And burbled as it came!

One two, one two, and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack.
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

And, hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
He chortled in his joy.

't Was mimsy, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe
All mimsy were the borogoves
And the mome raths outgrabe.

====
Many words from "Jabberwocky" are also found in The Hunting of the Snark. Here's "beamish", for one:
"But oh, beamish nephew, beware of the day
If your snark be a boojum! For then
You will softly and suddenly vanish away
Never to be met with again!"

"Wabe" in stanza 1 rhymes with "maybe". It's like "way be-fore" and "way be-yond" . Or so the annotations tell me.

Well, here's my little tribute to one of history's greatest nonsense poems. But things could have been worse.
Lewis Carroll once sat on a train (yeah right) and there was this young girl who recited to him all of the Snark. The complete eight fits. I cannot do that (yet ;-) )

And, as I said, there may be the odd misspelling - this is without consulting my books or the Internet...
cheers,
Rob.

(yeah - I got interrupted by phone, doorbell and cats from second 1 when I typed this... hence the wrong opening. Now corrected.)

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #34
Quote
"Wabe" in stanza 1 rhymes with "maybe".

Permit me to doubt that. Carroll was pretty consistent with his scansion and it would give a nine syllable second line whereas all the others are eight.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #35
I've already solved all my problems so there is no need to stay on topic.  Thanks a lot for all of your help!

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #36
'T was brillig, and the slithy toves...
Carroll was pretty consistent with his scansion and it would give a nine syllable second line whereas all the others are eight.
The scansion yields 8, 8, 8, 6 (three lines of iambic tetrameter, 1 line of iambic trimeter) for each stanza, but the 1st stanza ends with an irregular line (And the mome raths outgrabe.), and the line that ends the 2nd stanza contains an awk-word ("frumious" needs to be pronounced as 2 syllables).


Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #37
Permit me to doubt that. Carroll was pretty consistent with his scansion and it would give a nine syllable second line whereas all the others are eight.
But of course. Most learned men do. But when I found Humpty Dumpty and Alice having this conversation:
   "And 'the wabe' is the grass-plot round a sun-dial, I suppose?" said Alice, surprised at her own ingenuity.
   "Of course it is. It's called 'wabe,' you know, because it goes a long way before it, and a long way behind it --"
   "And a long way beyond it on each side," Alice added.

That's what I found: a logical explanation, and quite a remarkable and funny one. Waybe-fore, waybe-hind and waybe-yond. So I stick to H.D.'s version, try not to crash, and not to call in all the king's horses and all the king's men.

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #38
"frumious" needs to be pronounced as 2 syllables.

Hence, we'd better read this with a strong British accent like the folks at NPR.

There used to be a popular computer game called Snark, which required finding a set of coordinates containing the snark in a 10x10 matrix using nets of different radii.

Ha...I caught the Snark this time in 1 try...with a hyphen!  :)

Re: labeling "right hand" and "left hand" simply as "piano"

Reply #39
Quote
I've already solved all my problems so there is no need to stay on topic...

I guess that's a good thing,  cuz we sure didn't.

Hope you enjoyed the journey.