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Too many staves

   Too many staves

   I have a problem that in the past I've simply brushed under the carpet, but now ...now I need to deal with it.  Only, I don't know how.  Can anyone help?  It goes like this:-

   If you have two separate staves with the same channel (channel 1, say), and thus playing the same instrument (a horn, for example), and you place on them - one on one, the other on the other - two notes of the same pitch (middle C, for instance) starting at the same time but one lasting longer than the other (such as, one a crotchet, one a minim), the way midi operates is to send along the relevant channel a stream of command signals including "note on" and "note off" signals.  Unfortunately, because in this example the two are on the same channel, and of the same pitch, the "note off" signal for the shorter note also acts to turn off the longer note before it reaches its normal end.

   So the standard answer is to use different channels for the two staves, so that the midi signals go to two different places.

   Which is fine, except that I don't have enough channels!

   I am presently keying in Elgar's Dream of Gerontius, and essentially I require, all at the same time, 19 staves - 3 soloists, 4 semi-chorus, 4 First Choir, 4 Second Choir, and 4 orchestral (an expansion of the two-stave piano reduction).  Because in some sections they all sing or play together, I need all 19 staves at once.  And because they should all be able to sing/play something different, I need 19 instruments and 19 channels.  This, though, is not possible with my set-up; I have a single Soundblaster 64 Gold, giving me access to a single set of the standard General Midi 16 channels - of which Channel 10 is set aside for percussion sounds, so leaving me 15 channels to play with.

   I thought I would be able to cope by cheating, and giving my Choir 1 and Choir 2 the same four channels (and the same four instruments), and generally I seem to get away with this.  But just now and again it turns out that the Sops1 (for instance) are singing the same note, but shorter, as the Sops2 ... and so the Sops2 note gets cut off (when the Sops1 note ends) long before it actually should stop.

   That's my problem; does anyone have any ideas what I can do about it?

   MusicJohn, 05/Oct/06

Re: Too many staves

Reply #1 –
If your are using Soundblaster then (I think) that you should be able to set things up for 32 channels.

Go to tools  options midi  and look at the available play devices.  (You will probably already have one in the Devices used by play back box)
In the available play devices box, you should see others that are avalable to you. My guess is that you will at least have something Soundblasterish and also possible something that says Microsoft GS Wave table. Make sure both of these are in the right hand box, and that when you click ok, you don't get a message saying that one of them failed to open properly.

Having done that, go to the properties for the staff, In the midi tab, you can now set up channels 1 to 16 on 16 staves using playback device (Soundblasterish something or other) and then set up a further 16 staves to use channels 17 to 32 on playback device  Microsoft GS Wave table.

I would set up the worst playback device for those staves that either do not have that much music OR for those where the playback sound is poor whatever device you use.

One word of warning.

Sending your NWC file to other people will give them problems generally because they may only have one play back device and therefore the staves that have channels from 17 to 32 will not sound on their system

(I think I've got this right)


Rich.

Re: Too many staves

Reply #2 –
G'day Rich and John,
sounds right to me.

John, here's a bit of advice that I saw from Tina somewhere or other one time.

For the times when, like in your example, 2 voices on one channel have the same note but of different durations, simply mute the shorter one...

Pro: nothing gets "cut off"

Con: On some sound cards/synths the perceived volume will be lesser for the "unreinforced" notes than for the rest of the notes on the respective staves...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Too many staves

Reply #3 –
   Too many staves

   Hi, Rich/Lawrie.

   Thanks for the suggestions.

   Rich: though I've been playing with the Soundblaster for yonks, I had not previously managed to find out about its inclusion of, and ability to drive, two sound devices at once.

   When I look, I find I have

a)   Midi Mapper (which is what I normally use),
b)   Creative Music Synth [220]
c)   AWE 64G MIDI Out [300]
d)   AWE 64G MIDI Synth [620]

   whatever they all mean.

   When I test each, one at a time, on a plain one note staff, I find that the Midi Mapper, the Creative Music Synth and the AWE 64G MIDI Synth work fine (though the quality of sound from the Creative Music Synth is appalling), but that the AWE 64G MIDI Out is accepted but doesn't provide any sound at all.

   When I try two ... well, when I load all four into the tools|options-Midi right-hand-side box I can get any three in, and the last one of either the Midi Mapper or the AWE 64G MIDI Synth [620] "won't open".  It seems that I can have any combination provided that it doesn't include both Midi Mapper and AWE 64G MIDI Synth.  And no, I don't understand what Rules are being applied here! 

   So: if for two staves I use both Midi Mapper and the awful Creative Music Synth - one for one staff, the other for the other - I can set up the two staves each to use channel 1.  And then when I play the music - two staves, same pitch of note, different instruments - yes, indeed, you're absolutely right: I get two sounds.  Hurrah!

   Incidentally, Noteworthy won't let me select channel numbers beyond 16: so I have 1-16 with one device, and 1-16 with the second device.

   But, as you say, if a Midi File prepared from this is played by someone without a Soundblaster ... or perhaps without the ability to use two devices at the same time ... then it's all to no purpose.  And that, of course, is going to be the problem.

   And worse: as Lawrie says, Tina has in the past suggested that when 2 voices on one channel have the same note but of different durations, simply mute the shorter one ... nothing gets "cut off".  True, but for my purposes - making Rehearsal Files for Choirs - I need to be able to have each voice hearing its own note (short for one, long for the other).

   It's a bummer.  So far, the only thing I can think of is to key in the longer note as two shorter notes (the first of the value of the other voice's short note) slurred together.  The longer note will thus get started twice ... and though it will sound twice, at least the total sound will equal the intended length.  The trouble there, though, is that every such note has to be sought out and dealt with individually (whereas Rich's suggeston is at least "automatic" once it's been set up).

   Ah well; these things are sent to try us.  In this case I blame Elgar.

   MusicJohn, 06/Oct/06

Re: Too many staves

Reply #4 –
G'day John,

Quote from: MusicJohn –
<snip>
   When I look, I find I have

a)   Midi Mapper (which is what I normally use),
b)   Creative Music Synth [220]
c)   AWE 64G MIDI Out [300]
d)   AWE 64G MIDI Synth [620]

   whatever they all mean.


  • a) Midi Mapper - This is a "redirection" to whatever device is specified in |Control Panel|Sounds and Audio Devices|Audio tab|MIDI music playback| "Default device:" - from your description I suggest it is mapped to the "AWE 64G MIDI Synth"
  • b) Creative Music Synth [220] - This is probably a softsynth
  • c) AWE 64G MIDI Out [300] - This will be the MIDI output available on the 'game port' of your sound card - use it for driving external MIDI synths
  • d) AWE 64G MIDI Synth [620] - This will be the hardware synth on the AWE sound card

Quote

<snip>
Incidentally, Noteworthy won't let me select channel numbers beyond 16: so I have 1-16 with one device, and 1-16 with the second device.


This is a MIDI thing, not really a Noteworthy thing - NWC is simply complying with MIDI standards.

Quote
   But, as you say, if a Midi File prepared from this is played by someone without a Soundblaster ... or perhaps without the ability to use two devices at the same time ... then it's all to no purpose.  And that, of course, is going to be the problem.

The real problem is not having 2 synths - for the purposes of simply sharing the song it doesn't matter what synths they have as long as they have 2 and they are both setup.  If they are using only the viewer/player, I think this is a problem anyway as I don't believe that either can be configured to use anything but the MIDI mapper - so only 16 channels anyhow :(

Even if they have NWC and have configured 2 synths, they may not be the same 2 synths so the sound will not be what you hear anyway.  This is true of anyone of course, we all have different setups.

Quote
   And worse: as Lawrie says, Tina has in the past suggested that when 2 voices on one channel have the same note but of different durations, simply mute the shorter one ... nothing gets "cut off".  True, but for my purposes - making Rehearsal Files for Choirs - I need to be able to have each voice hearing its own note (short for one, long for the other).


If you are making rehearsal files,  maybe you can "mix'n'match" the channel usage so ONLY instruments double up on channels and all the vocal channels are seperate...  Or are they ALL vocal channels?

<snip the last bit>

Hopefully this is helpful mate.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Too many staves

Reply #5 –
Quote from: MusicJohn –
   When I look, I find I have

a)   Midi Mapper (which is what I normally use),
b)   Creative Music Synth [220]
c)   AWE 64G MIDI Out [300]
d)   AWE 64G MIDI Synth [620]

   whatever they all mean.
Midi Mapper is a virtual synth. It maps to an actual synth, most likely to [620]. That's why you can't use them both.
[620] is SB's wavetable synth. (the good one)
[220] is the orignal SB16 FM Synth from the 1980's. It does indeed sound deadful.
[300] is Midi Out. If you have a 15pin D (gameport) to dual 5pin DIN (midi) and use it to connect from your gameport to a midi keyboard, you can play it with your computer. The sound will come out of the keyboard. That is why it appears not to function.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Too many staves

Reply #6 –


   Hi, Lawrie, Hi Rick.

   Thanks for your comments - especially about what the various devices "are".  I suspected some of this - that Midi Mapper "mapped" to one of the others (the name's a bit of a give-away), and the fact that I couldn't use both it and the AWE 64G MIDI Synth - but I hadn't thought it through.

   Lawrie, you wonder whether, if I'm making rehearsal files, I can "mix'n'match" the channel usage so ONLY instruments double up on channels and all the vocal channels are separate.  Well, sadly no.  Elgar wrote the Work for 3 solo voices, 4 semi-chorus voices, 4 First Choir voices and 4 Second Choir voices, and they all (well, most) are singing at the same time, so that's 15 channels.  Expanding the two staves of the piano reduction to a sort of 4 stave fake orchestra makes it 19 in all, and all at once. 

   It's the "all at once" bit that mucks things up.  Many works have this many voices/instruments, but used in small combinations in different sections each of which is distinct from the next, so that I can change the channel distribution from one section to the next.  Unfortunately Elgar has only a single chunk of silence in, oh, the 35 parts that make up "Gerontius", and at least some of the time everybody is doing something, so if I provide a "combined section" File then it has to cater as best it can for everybody being separate even in the bits where they aren't (it's a pity it's not technically possible to re-assign channels on the fly).  So ... I'm stuffed!

   But ... it only happens now and again, so I guess I - and those who use my Files - will just have to lump it!

   Anyway, thanks again for your comments.

   MusicJohn, 07/Oct/06

Re: Too many staves

Reply #7 –
If you have a good version of Soundblaster you have the option of downloading a new Sound Font into your sound card and there are many SoundFonts of good quality available. You can select the sound font you use

Tony

Re: Too many staves

Reply #8 –
I haven't thought this through, nor have I tried it, but I wonder if adding a number of redundant layered staffs could help?  Instead of 19 staves, have 57 or 76 with 3 or 4 staffs used for each part. 

The first group of staffs, for the first solo voice, would be layered, but each would be set to 3 (or 4) different channels, say channels 1, 2 and 3.  The second group would be for the second solo voice, and would use channels 2, 3 and 4 respectively.  The third group, for third solo voice, would use 3, 4, and 5; the fourth group, first semi-chorus(?) uses 4, 5 and 6; and so on.  You will run out of channels before you run out of voices, so just start using them again. 

This may give you a workaround for
Quote
(it's a pity it's not technically possible to re-assign channels on the fly). 

Somewhere in this array there should be a place where one of the  channels is not being used by one of the instruments or voices, even if only for a beat or two.  When you have a note to enter in your active staff that uses the same channel as another note of different duration in another voicing,  then mute the note on the active staff, and duplicate it in one of the spare layered staffs for that voice that uses a channel that happens not to be in use at that exact moment.

It's going to be more like crawling than being on the fly, very tedious indeed, because you probably have to use and remove instrument patches, but it might be workable and do the job.

Good luck.



Re: Too many staves

Reply #9 –
The simplest answer is to replace your AWE64 with a later model Creative card such as the Live! (an OEM version should be very cheap now).

Later cards such as the Live have TWO soundfont synths (A and B) which each provide 16 channels.

You only have two ports available for playback on the AWE64.
The AWE 64 MIDI Synth (soundfont wavetable)
The Creative Music Synth (FM synthesis)
As pointed out in an ealier post you can use these two as MIDI ports and produce 16 channels of output on each port if you are prepared to sacrifice quality on the channels directed to the Creative Music Synth.

Your problem is the end user - if they only have an old soundblaster then they will only hear 16 channels.
The only answer there is to create mp3 files from the output.
It's a common problem with MIDI - what you hear when you create the file will not be heard by anyone else using a different soundcard or softsynth - recording to mp3 is the only way to preserve your quality.

Re: Too many staves

Reply #10 –
I should have also mentioned :-

Having two channels playing the same pitch with the same patch will not sound good anyhow - there is always a "flanging" effect - frequency interference that distorts the sound.
If you must have the sound of the same instrument at the same pitch write one only and add some chorus (controller 93) to the unison section - it will give a much cleaner result.

Re: Too many staves

Reply #11 –
   Hi, David/Barry.  Thanks for the comments.

   David said:-

"I wonder if adding a number of redundant layered staffs could help?  ... Somewhere in this array there should be a place where one of the  channels is not being used"

   That's an interesting suggestion, and I'll give it some thought - and try it out to see what it sounds like ... though I shouldn't need that many extra layered staves, just sufficient for the 4 that are currently doubled up (they're the only ones that are ever doubled!).

   Mind you, as you say: it's going to be more like crawling than being on the fly, and very tedious indeed, because I'll have to use and remove - and reset! - instrument patches.

   Barry suggests:-

"The simplest answer is to replace your AWE64 with a later model Creative card such as the Live! (an OEM version should be very cheap now)."

   Well, yes - but as he then observes:-

"Your problem is the end user - if they only have an old soundblaster then they will only hear 16 channels."

   and since the whole point is to provide the end User with something useful I fear this is a non-starter.

   Barry then adds:-

"The only answer there is to create mp3 files from the output."

and this is certainly an answer, and undoubtedly it will provide the best-sounding Files, but ... the cost is enormous Files and horrendous download times (for people without broadband).  I fear I'm going to have to stick with Midi for the moment.

   Barry then adds further:-

"Having two channels playing the same pitch with the same patch will not sound good anyhow - there is always a "flanging" effect - frequency interference that distorts the sound.  If you must have the sound of the same instrument at the same pitch write one only and add some chorus (controller 93) to the unison section - it will give a much cleaner result."

which is all true, but ...

a)   it doesn't happen very often, and anyway the whole purpose of this is to provide Rehearsal Files that my fellow Choir Members can download and use to practise with, so it doesn't matter that much if the sounds are a bit odd (certainly much less than having them not last for the right time). 

b)   and I'm already using plenty of chorus effect - this is, after all, a choral choir singing - and in any case I still have to be able to distinguish between two staves playing the same note at the same pitch but for different lengths.  From a single Master File not only must there be prepared a variant where the First Choir Sopranos are emphasised while the Seconds are pushed into the background but there must be one where the exact opposite happens (you can see what I mean by looking at examples from my Website - www dot thehoopers dot demon dot co dot uk  .

   Hmmm.  Though, come to think of it, a related answer might be to have two separate Master Files, one in which all the First Choir voices get precedence, and the relevant notes in the Second Choir voices are muted (and since they're pushed into the background anyway the complete absence of the occasional note here and there won't be noticed), and the other where it's the opposite way round.  I'll think about that, too.

   Ah, well.  As I said previously, I think I'm stuffed ... but thanks for all your comments.

   MusicJohn, 07/Oct/06

Re: Too many staves

Reply #12 –
Quote
"The only answer there is to create mp3 files from the output."  and this is certainly an answer, and undoubtedly it will provide the best-sounding Files, but ... the cost is enormous Files and horrendous download times (for people without broadband).  I fear I'm going to have to stick with Midi for the moment.

Not necessarily that big and bad.  A typical 3 minute song at higher quality ripped from a CD will be between 1 and 3 megabytes; I doubt if your songs would be much bigger, would they?  Your internet service provider probably includes a certain amount of file storage space in your package; just upload your MP3 file there, and instead of sending an email with a big file, just send your audience a link to download it.  If you need to create a basic webspace and don't know how, check out the easy tutorial at www.draac.com.

Even simpler is to upload the file on htp://yousendit.com. 

Of course, there's the hassle of creating the MP3 file, but that's not too difficult.

Don't get discouraged.  If it's good music, or if you just enjoy the challenge, it's worth doing.



Re: Too many staves

Reply #13 –
Appologies in advance for using NWC2 Clips in this forum.

This may work. Create 2 staves with the same midi channel and put the following Clips on them.
A recorder and an oboe duet on one channel! (a least it is with my AWE32).  Since you are doing choral music, the 64th delay should not be a problem. You may still have the note collision problem.
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Instrument|Name:"74"|Patch:74
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:4
|Instrument|Name:"74"|Patch:74
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:3
|Instrument|Name:"74"|Patch:74
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:2
|Instrument|Name:"74"|Patch:74
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:64th
|Instrument|Name:"68"|Patch:68
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:2
|Instrument|Name:"68"|Patch:68
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:1
|Instrument|Name:"68"|Patch:68
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:0
|Instrument|Name:"68"|Patch:68
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: Too many staves

Reply #14 –

   David/Rick, thanks for your further comments.

   David: you suggest that MP3 files wouldn't be that bad ... but in this particular case they would, they most certainly would!  "Gerontius" is about 90 minutes long; that's quite a few Megabytes, I fear.  And yes, as you suggest, all the Files are to be uploaded to, and then (by the User) downloaded from, my Website (see www dot thehoopers dot demon dot co dot uk, as I noted in a previous response).

   Rick:  I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're suggesting with the V2 clips (I only have V1.75, so can't actually load in the clips).  However, I can work out that it's slurred fah, me, re, doh in one, and - 1/64 later - slurred doh, re, me, fah in the other.  Ye-e-es ... but for a short time the two res overlap - and unfortunately the instrument patch in the upwards set between the re and the me cuts off the re in the downwards set.  And while you're right that the 6th rest won't be that noticeable, ... hmmmm.

   Oh well; I will give thought to all your suggestions, and make a decision.  Perhaps!  [:-)]

   MusicJohn, 9/Oct/06

Re: Too many staves

Reply #15 –
Quote from: MusicJohn –
... the instrument patch in the upwards set between the re and the me cuts off the re in the downwards set. ...
It doesn't on my AWE32 with Win98.  Perhaps some others (with NWC2) can confirm this.
If you have access to the newsgroup, I can post some files there.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Too many staves

Reply #16 –
I just want to say I will be very pleased if you manage it!   I want to learn it!  I dont understand all the technical stuff written here but I have a Realtek AC97 Audio for Via R Audio controller in case it is any use you knowing what is out and about.   I dont know how many channels it can map to but if you tell me how I can find out, I will do so.
Jennifer

Re: Too many staves

Reply #17 –
I have just downloaded a midi file of this from www.thehoopers.demon.co.uk and I see that when imported into NWC v1.75b I have 22 staves.  John has written some notes about how he has tackled the problem
Jennifer
 

Re: Too many staves

Reply #18 –
Oh bother - I have just discovered you are John Hooper!!!
Jennifer

Re: Too many staves

Reply #19 –
   Hi, Jennifer.

   "Oh bother - I have just discovered you are John Hooper!!!"

   Worry not.  And despite all the suggestions and advice I got, in the end I chickened out and did almost nothing ... except that I "faked" it by representing the longer note as a collection of suitable shorter notes slurred - not tied - together.  So, if, for example, the short note was a crotchet and the longer note a minim I "faked" the minim as two slurred crotchets, while if the short note was a dotted crotchet and the longer note a minim I faked the latter with a dotted crotchet slurred to a following quaver.

   This "solution" works because the destination slurred note has to be turned on by a "note on" command, which is issued just after the shorter note's "note off" command, so it's almost as if the longer note was real.  Almost; you only just - just - notice the join ... that the longer note is really two shorter ones!  [:-)]

   I think I got them all this way.  I think!

   MusicJohn, 20/Oct/06