Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Topic: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests) (Read 25059 times) previous topic - next topic

Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

2006-08-18 09:35 pm

I have been working on a project that's not in 4/4 time and noticed that while a whole rest fills up the entire measure, regardless of whether it's 2/4 of 5/4 or whatever, a whole note does not.
From what I've always heard a whole rest/note does not take up the amount of beats in the lower section of the time signature, but should fill up the whole measure?

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #1 – 2006-08-18 11:00 pm

The duration of a whole note is not used to "fill out" a whole measure in the same manner as a whole measure rest.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #2 – 2006-08-19 02:44 am

I'm having trouble understanding your problem exactly. Maybe you could post it as a clip text?

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #3 – 2006-08-19 03:08 am

I think it's conventional that in 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 time, a whole rest occupies the right number of beats to fill the bar. I've seen it often in band parts. Older charts sometimes will use a half rest in the 2/4 and a dotted half rest in 3/4. NWCs behaviour is in accordance with normal modern practice.

I don't believe I've ever seen notes used the same way. A whole note means 4 beats in 4/4 or 2 beats in alla breve, but it doesn't mean 3 beats in 3/4. Again, NWC's behaviour is correct.

I can't explain the theory, only recall what I am pretty sure I often see.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #4 – 2006-08-19 03:11 am

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #5 – 2006-08-19 07:58 pm

Yeah, that's what I'm running into, Fitzclan. I'm not sure how to fix it, though-something like this?

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:5/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3^
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-3^
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Unfortunately, the tie (required for playback) does not have visibility properties.
And it gets a lot more complex for 3/4 situations...
Best I can do is:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Text|Text:"j"|Font:User6|Pos:3
|Note|Dur:Half,Dotted|Pos:0|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

(User 6 is set to NWC2STDA)

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #6 – 2006-08-19 09:41 pm

G'day Kahman,
I'm pretty sure there's nothing to be corrected...

While the whole (semibreve) rest can be used to occupy an entire bar (except in 4/2 and 8/4 which require a breve or double whole rest) the whole (semibreve) note cannot. I'm not talking NWC limitations here, but standard notational practice.

It may not look as neat, but I'm pretty sure that tied note is required.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #7 – 2006-08-19 09:50 pm

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #8 – 2006-08-19 10:09 pm

Quote

if you wanted to have 4 mute beats and two eighth sounding notes, it would be necessary to have the half rests taking up only 4 of the 5 available beats in the measure.

Normally a 5/4 bar is going to be subdivided rhythmically into either 3 and 2 or the other way around. Assuming 2 and 3, with the 8th notes at the end of the bar, I think you would normally see a half rest, two quarter rests, then the 8th notes. If it were 3 and 2, you would see a dotted half rest, a quarter rest and the 8th notes. The composer is trying to communicate her/his intentions to the musician who will interpret the printed music, and that is best done by sticking with traditional notation that the musician knows how to read.

Quote

The whole rest however reads the time signature and therefore takes up the space of 3 quarter beats, not 4, where if the time sig. was 4/4, it would take up 4 beats as it takes up 5 beats in the 5/4 measure. That's just the way it is, and always was.

While I agree that's the way it is, it wasn't always. We still see older transcriptions in the concert band literature with use dotted half rests. However, they're generally older works, and IIRC printed by British or European publishers.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #9 – 2006-08-19 11:58 pm

Yeah, when I said always I knew I would be in trouble. I just wanted Kahman to see that his thinking is askew. When you start talking about excceptions I find that the issue becomes cloudy, so I stated it that way just for clarity. And while Kahman's wrestling with the problem, he is learning how things work. Nothing wrong with that. I remember thinking the same thing at one time. There are a lot of little subtleties you might miss when reading music that you get stuck on when writing. Things I thought I knew suddenly come into question. There is plenty of sheet music out there where you will find that the upper and lower staves have unequal time intervals if you break it down. Generally though, you just go with it the way you think it flows. Kahman was making use of whole notes and I wanted him to see that there is necessarily a quarter beat lacking in the measure. The eighths were just in addition to the 4 quarter beats needed to fill out the requirements of the time signature, (again for clarity). He didn't seem to see that the time signature ( the first thing I look at when reading a piece) dictates the # of beats (and type of beats) required in each measure and therefore the duration of the whole rest. As I think I stated, it is best to break down the whole note into what is easiest to read in accordance with what is found in the accompanying staff. The simpler the better in my estimation. That is why I don't go along with that 31/2 over 4 business talked about in another thread. It doesn't make sense. And just for the heck of it, no one uses that kind of time signature in a piece of music because they believe that the people singing the song will likely be drunk! If they were, they would certainly never figure out what to do with it. Folk music can be pretty tricky to play. I can't understand why anyone would want to make it impossible. 7/8 it is! Sorry David. Once I get going.....!

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #10 – 2006-08-20 12:09 am

Quote from: fitzclan – 2006-08-19 11:58 pm

He didn't seem to see that the time signature ( the first thing I look at when reading a piece) dictates the # of beats (and type of beats) required in each measure and therefore the duration of the whole rest.

That's what I've been saying all along. (Unless I understand what you're saying wrong.)

What I'm trying to say is that the length of a whole note is equal to the top note of the key signature. That's also what is in one measure.

Look at this:
Top staff:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Bottom Staff:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:3/4
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0^
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

That's what I was talking about at the start.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #11 – 2006-08-20 12:58 am

You are still trying to squeeze 4/4 beats into a 3/4 measure. The number of beats in the whole note is not dictated by the time sig. You cannot have a whole note in a piece with a 3/4 signature as there are only 3 beats in a measure. a dotted half takes up the whole measure. That is the nature of 3/4 time. A whole note has 4 beats. No getting around it. The whole rest you show in the first measure contains 3 quarter beats because the signature demands it. The whole note contains 4 quarter beats. You will not see whole notes in 3/4 music. Look around. The problem is not a function of the software.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #12 – 2006-08-20 01:03 am

In your own example, you have made quite clear what I am trying to say to you. The first measure contains 3 quarter beats in both staves. In the second, the bass staff shows correct timing in accord with the signature. ie. 3 quarter beats. The top staff however shows 4 quarter beats in the second measure which you cannot have. I have said before, you can write whatever you want, but that doesn't make it correct.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #13 – 2006-08-20 01:16 am

"What I'm trying to say is that the length of a whole note is equal to the top note of the key signature."

What you are trying to say makes no sense to me.
The number in the top of the time signature is the number of beats per measure. The bottom number is the type of beat. 2/2 says there are 2 half beats per measure. 6/8 says, 6 eighth beats per measure, 3/4 says there are 3 quarter notes per measure and so on. Again, the top number in the time sig. does not dictate the value of any type of note including whole, half, quarter, eighth or any other type of note. It will however establish the duration of the rest.

OK Lawrie, bail me out! I don't seem to be articulating very well. Maybe you can make it clearer. I could be wrong!

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #14 – 2006-08-20 03:04 am

OK, here goes... No offence intended to anyone, this will probably sound a little terse...

First, lets ditch the name "whole note" as it is misleading and use the older name "semibreve" - I don't want to go into too much history as it would only add confusion.

To my knowledge (and I did some checking up to make sure I hadn't missed something) the semibreve is worth 4 beats in x/4 time. It cannot be used in 3/4 time as a 3/4 bar does not have 4 beats. It is worth 4 beats in a 4/4 or 5/4 bar. It is worth 2 beats in 2/2 or 3/2 or 4/2 etc.. It is worth 8 beats in a 9/8 or 12/8 bar etc.. It cannot be used in a 6/8 bar as there isn't 8 beats in a 6/8 bar.

It is worth exactly 4 crotchet or 1/4 notes. It is worth exactly 8 quaver or 1/8 notes. It is worth exactly 2 minim or 1/2 notes. No more and no less. To attempt to use it to fill a 5/4 bar in it's own right is incorrect usage and no musician will be able to sight read it 'cos (s)he won't have a clue what you're trying to do without careful examination. They will be looking for the missing note(s). Especially if they only have a lead sheet and not a multiple instrument or piano score with which to compare voices.

It does NOT exactly correlate with a "whole" rest which has some special considerations allowed for it to make rest notation easier.

I hope that clears things up a bit. I agree that tied notes to fill every bar in a 5/4 work looks a little untidy but that's how it is. Fortunately 5/4 is not very common (unless you're playing Mission Impossible...

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #15 – 2006-08-20 03:33 am

This might help as well...

http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory4.htm

It says the same and has some illustrations.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #16 – 2006-08-20 05:28 am

I'm writing here in response to Fitz's message that starts

Quote

Yeah, when I said always I knew I would be in trouble....

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything you wrote here, except when you write about the crazy 3 and a half over four time signature. I agree it's crazy, but it's not so the drunken folk musician can read it. I think it was Grainger's attempt to communicate the drunk's song to the straightlaced, sober, longhaired orchestral player (trained musicians don't drink, do they?).

I didn't and don't know why Grainger didn't just use a compound time signature; perhaps they became more common later. I see the Dolmetsch site says Ives used 4 1/2 over 4. Take a look at the section in the Dolmetsch site headed Unusual Time Signatures and Hypermeasures and the section headed Ametric Music . Possibly the reasons lie therein.

Lots of good info in the other messages below. Those who want to do unconventional notation with NWC or manually or with any other notation program should consider the old adage, "Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should."

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #17 – 2006-08-20 12:19 pm

Whew! I'm glad we got that cleared up. Sorry David. I know what you were saying. I was just stickin' it to ya for fun. I understand that the composer tries to translate or interpret into written form what he is hearing or feeling. I remember back in the '70's when the Moog Synth. was big, there were all kinds of charts that tried to notate patch cords and settings. Of course, that was majorly simplified later and the patch cords dissapeared. Other avant garde music required it's own kind of notation as well. (not worth the time it takes to listen to generally), But I agree, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #18 – 2006-08-20 03:51 pm

I think I get it now. Unfortunately, I don't have any good scores for looking at how to hold up a measure, since I can't find my copy of The Rite of Spring.

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2006-08-20 03:04 am

Fortunately 5/4 is not very common (unless you're playing Mission Impossible...

Yeah, Mission Impossible is fun to play.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #19 – 2006-08-20 07:54 pm

Le Sacre du Printemps, eh? Studying Stravinsky to learn time signatures is like picking up the bible and beginning to read in Revelation. Not exactly beginner material. Stravinsky was considered "Avant Garde' in his heyday and still is by many. Indeed he introduced a few unusual writing techniques of his own and was able to stretch the imagination and abilities of the finest musicians.
The Cyberhymnal uses NWC for it's music which is a free service.
While I wasn't able to come up with any 5/4 scores off hand, you can go to http://www.cyberhymnal.org/index.htm and check out a few of these unususal time signatures.

9/4 Have thine own way Lord
3/2 Hear the voice of Jesus calling
9/8 I will sing of my redeemer
9/4 One day
12/8 O Holy Night
6/4 Make me a blessing

They would be much easier to understand than Igor.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #20 – 2006-09-19 10:48 am

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2006-08-20 03:04 am

the semibreve [..] is worth 4 beats in a 4/4 or 5/4 bar. It is worth 2 beats in 2/2 or 3/2 or 4/2 etc..

As a curiosity, I'm currently transposing a bassoon part from Mars (Holst, that is). It is well-known that the fast tempo is written in 5/4, but the slower, menancing parts are written in 5/2. No big deal, NWC handles it fine.

However in the original material printed in 1924, at one point near the end (reference number 11, just before it goes into 3/4 and all the quick fiddling takes place) the bassoon (as well as the alto sax) part looks like this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|TimeSig|Signature:5/2
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:-6
|Bar|Style:Double
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Yes, it definitely looks like two "half note" rests followed by a half note in a time signature where I would've expected two "whole note" (semi breve) rests if each is worth two beats at 5/2. Unfortunately, there are no semi breve rests in the parts I have access to, so I can't compare if the printer used those at all. All the rests are of the type concatenated multi-bar. What gives? Could at one point a semi breve rest have meaned the whole bar no matter the time signature, and a minim rest was worth two beats? Or did I miss some anecdotal part of music theory that already was explained/linked to?

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #21 – 2006-09-19 08:11 pm

Your parts are definitely wrong (even for 1924). They read as 3/2 (or maybe 6/4). I think you're likely right that the minim (half-note) rests should be semibreve (whole-note) rests, but check with the conductor, or other players with the same line.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #22 – 2006-09-19 08:21 pm

Hmm...What's on the other side of that double bar line? Is it possible that it is separating a musical phrase and what is after it is part of the measure? OR if it is the last measure, add the beats to the first measure (which should contain 2 half beats). Hard to say without a little more of the score. There's always the typo! In 5/2, there are 5 half beats per measure. You are showing 3. Generally, a whole rest fills the measure, whatever the signature but the other rests are of specific beat durations that are not changed by the time signature. Then again, things may have changed over time.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #23 – 2006-09-20 01:34 pm

There are five bars of 5/2 (fff), then follows the double bar line and 3/4 (p cresc to fff) for the remaining 14 bars, of which the last eight are in a rallantando. If I have the time, I will browse through parts looking for a place where exactly one bar of rest is denoted, or perhaps a part where the player enters on the third beat. There is no pick-up notes in the beginning to compensate for. As I said, a curiosity perhaps caused by the confusion that if a semi breve rest should always fill the whole bar, what to do when you need four beats of rest in a bar with other notes.

In theory, I wonder which version the engraver would've used for a (made-up) bar like this:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:5/4
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Half,Dotted
|Rest|Dur:4th
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #24 – 2006-09-20 01:39 pm

It was always my impression that the whole (semi-breve) rest fills the measure (bar) ONLY when it is the only note/rest in that measure. If there is anything else (time consuming) in the measure, then the whole rest reverts to = 4 quarter (crotchet) rests.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #25 – 2006-09-20 02:12 pm

Quote from: Cyril Alberga – 2006-09-20 01:39 pm

It was always my impression that the whole (semi-breve) rest fills the measure (bar) ONLY when it is the only note/rest in that measure. If there is anything else (time consuming) in the measure, then the whole rest reverts to = 4 quarter (crotchet) rests.

This is also my understanding. According to my friend "Alfred":

WHOLE REST
with the exception of 4/2 and 8/4, the whole rest is used to signify a complete measure of rest in any time signature.

The accompanying examples show bars that contain only a rest. IMHO Any other time consuming element would logically change this.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #26 – 2006-09-20 04:49 pm

I have never seen a whole rest used in conjunction with any other note in the same bar. It would seem that that in 5/2 or 5/4, the use of half or quarter rests would be appropriate to use instead of a whole rest as in the example. But then hey, what do I know? This may have been the accepted norm at some point.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #27 – 2006-09-20 10:05 pm

Quote from: fitzclan – 2006-09-20 04:49 pm

I have never seen a whole rest used in conjunction with any other note in the same bar.

It is quite common in 6/4 and 3/2

One oddity with NWC2. I would think that if a measure consists only of a whole rest and grace notes, the rest should still be a whole measure rest, e.g.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C
|TimeSig|Signature:3/2
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace,Slur|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Dotted|Pos:1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Why a barline should stop a grace slur is another mystery ...

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #28 – 2006-09-21 12:04 am

Just conjecture, but since NWC grace notes always "borrow" from the following note, it doesn't make any logical sense for them to be alone in a measure, or to be tied/slurred to a note in the next measure.

Of course, if the oft wished for "forward borrowing" grace note is ever added then this might make sense (but are such graces notated in a previous measuer/bar?).

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #29 – 2006-09-21 01:52 am

Rick, you certainly have a knack for coming across the most obscure oddities. It is a curiousoty that the grace note detatches at the bar line, but I think that it would be unusual to have the grace note in a different measure than the note it affects as Cyril stated.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #30 – 2009-04-30 09:04 am

Quote from: fitzclan – 2006-09-21 01:52 am

I think that it would be unusual to have the grace note in a different measure than the note it affects.

Quote from: http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Ornament-(music)#Acciaccatura

Exceptionally, the acciaccatura may be notated in the bar preceding the note to which it is attached, showing that it is to be played before the beat. (This guide to practice is unfortunately not available, of course, if the principal note does not fall at the beginning of the measure.)

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #31 – 2009-05-15 12:47 am

I suppose that "Exceptionally" and "unusual" mean about the same thing here. If I were to come across this in notation, it wouldn't cause a problem.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #32 – 2009-05-15 01:51 am

Quote from: fitzclan – 2009-05-15 12:47 am

I suppose that "Exceptionally" and "unusual" mean about the same thing here.

Here I think it simply means "as an exception", that is, stripped of its usual connotation.

As I read the full article, it seems to say that the decision of when to play grace notes depends on good taste and an understanding of practices in the period, but exceptionally, grace notes before a barline should be played before the beat.

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #33 – 2009-06-27 08:56 pm

As the Dolmetsch page referred to above makes clear, there are two different rests, with (usually) identical form: the semibreve or whole-note rest, always equal to four crotchets or quarter-notes, and the whole-bar rest, always equal to one bar. (Occasionally the whole-bar rest is notated in a form similar to a breve rest or to a longa rest, or as a short sloping line, a smaller version of the sloping stroke often used for multiple bars of rests.) There is no such thing as a whole-bar note, though, but the use of the breve in Anglican chant comes very close to it.
I wish the two rests had been made distinct, but that's life. I would also like NWC to distinguish them. It would involve code capable of mind-reading, but judging by what is already in NWC, that may not be asking too much.
If NWC does finally include breves (hint hint) will the breve rest symbol also be usable as a whole-bar rest symbol?

Re: Serious bug in length of Whole Notes (But Not Rests)

Reply #34 – 2009-06-27 10:52 pm

Quote from: adge – 2009-06-27 08:56 pm

I wish the two rests had been made distinct.

They are distinct. They share the same glyph, but not the same horizontal position. Of the many ambiguities in printed music, figuring out whether a rest represents an entire measure or only 4 quarter beats is a minor one.

NWC2's only departure from standard practice is that it uses the wrong glyph for a whole measue rest in 4/2.
I can live with that. If I ever need to, I'll just hide the glyph and put the correct one (from a custom font) in as text.