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Topic: could we have more than just triplets to choose from? (Read 10845 times) previous topic - next topic

could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

hey, I'm in the process of sketches for a syncopated rythym built on note groups of 5, 6, 7 and 10. Granted, a group of 6 notes can be rendered slighty by two triplet patterns, but what about having the others? I know it's nothign more than simple division to program, so why can't we have this? If there is already a way to do this, someone let me know, I've already posted this on the wishlist.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #1 –
There are some fairly messy ways of achieving n-tuplets with tempo changes, hidden tied notes, and text insertions etc etc, but I can't really recommend them as anything other than remedies in extremis.

You've hit the nail on the head with simple division. All the hard work has already been done implementing triplets, and extending this to other divisions should be a piece of cake.

We can but wait and see.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #3 –
Actually, if you're just concerned about the midi and not how the score looks, you can skip changing the tempo.

For example, a group of 5: the first two note values should be dotted 32nds, the third should be a 16th and the last two should be dotted 32nds as well. Just figure out the math: after all, that's how they're usually played. You should hear straight 5's and it's as easy as that.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #4 –
Well, maybe that's how they're usually played by you, but my band plays them correctly.
We also play 7s and 11s correctly, sometimes one after the other.
(We're a Zappa-style band, and we also cover some Zappa.)

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #5 –
Yeah, well, you may not realize it, but it should be pretty hard to be to tell how you play 11s note by note (trust me, I know what it's like - I play a lot of stuff by Malmsteen (though I improvise a bit more)), so it's just a matter of writing an even sounding formula concerning note input on NoteWorthy.  I got the idea for the formula when I imported the Midi of Prokofiev's 6th piano sonata(movement 4) and there was a section with a series of 5s to be played. The person used the above formula and it sounds just great, so it would be a good idea to use it.
How else do you think you're gonna do it considering there is no note divisible by 5? If more than one track is being played at the same time, that track will speed up as well and it will all of a sudden sound faster temporarily. Who wants that to happen??????

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #6 –
The trick is to use inserted tempos that make it sound as if it hadn't sped up.  We have one chart in which two of us have 5s while two others have 3s, and the drums and bass are playing 4s.
And I did it in NWC.

But it was a LOT of work and I wish it were simpler...

...especially the 11:5 section...

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #7 –
As an aside:

Triplets are common in choral music. I have found that singers sometimes prolong one of the notes (or abbreviate one) if it corresponds to a stressed (or unstressed) syllable. So, the notes are not sung with equal duration. But the difference is not as great as (say) 1/8-1/4-1/8 in place of triplet 1/4. Thus, for triplets, a triplet is really needed.

I have never encountered more numerous tuplets in choral music. If they exist, I imagine that some syllable would be prolonged (or abbreviated). Thus, if asked to sing 5 1/8 notes in the time normally occupied by 4, I would be comfortable with 4X dotted 1/16, plus 1X 1/8, in the order that made linguistic sense. In this case, the odd duration would only be 25% longer than its exact value, and the others only 7% too short.

In music with no linguistic content, it may well be the case that such variation is unacceptable.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #8 –
Going from -7% to +25% is probably going to be noticeably different, Robert, depending on tempo.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #9 –
It's the linguistic thing, David. Try pronouncing "watermelon man" (5 syllables) with all syllables of exactly the same length. If that were in a song (and it is, but not as a 5-tuplet), the different syllables would get different timing, even if written as a 5-tuplet. But the suggested combination of notes is not necessarily a catch-all solution. I can see that for instrumental music, genuine equality of timing would be preferred.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #10 –
You can get quite close with double-dotting. Three dotted 32nds separated by two double-dotted 32nds.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #11 –
I could sing "watermelon man" with perfect evenness...

...if it weren't such a twung tister...

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #12 –
This thread proves (once again) that we really need to have more than triplets built into the program. It's on a *lot* of wish lists, so NWC honchos, please note!

Stephen

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #13 –
Even something as simple as 2-tuplets (in a 6/8 bar, 2 8th-notes taking the time of 3) would be a big help.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #14 –
ANR, there is a simple workaround for duplets that gives definitely-correct time:  Simply dot two eighths(quavers).  They will then take the time of three exactly.

Of course, it doesn't work for printing, unless you also add a text "2", and white-out the dots after you've printed!

Cheers,
Ewan

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #15 –
I "white-out the dots" before I print.
Set one of your highlight colors to white.
Add a dot as a text item.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #16 –
I meant "Add a white dot as a text item to cover the real dot."

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #17 –
Or better yet, now that beaming across a rest is possible:
eighth-note, invisible sixteenth-rest, eighth-note, invisible sixteenth-rest.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #18 –
I have a piece by Sullivan that uses a quintet, and another that uses a septet to allow a rising scale to fit in its entirity. Whilst the first CAN be reduced to two eighth notes and a triplet for mini purposes, I can't quite come up with a way to make it printable. Please do implement this!

On the subject of Sullivan and these divisions, how about something to allow 6/8  against 4/4?  He uses that sort of thing so very often.... sure, many of them [though not, it must be said, all] CAN be adjusted using triplets, but none of them will print correctly no matter what you do.

Re: could we have more than just triplets to choose from?

Reply #19 –
If the quintuplet or sextuplet notes are beamed, you can add the bracket and number as text in a small font above the beam, using Boxmark2 font.  The entry is simply v(space)#(space)w where # represents 5,6,or 7.

I would set it to be centered over the middle note of the grouping.

For the brackets you could use Boxmark2.  You might want to place the v at the beginning of the grouped notes, centered and at next note, and the w at the end of the group, centered and at next note.

Sorry if I'm repeating myself - it's late and I'm fighting off sleep.

For the playback, just insert a hidden tempo change before and after the note group.