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Wishes...

<quote>

Here I am again.

1) Microtonal accidentals. I have a solution for you :) Let's make it "including user defined text information in/as key signature" so that you won't have to design anything. In addition, for example, percussion clef will be applicable -as a user font character.

2)

A)Beams and triplets spanning barlines.

B) Beaming crockets and halves.

C) Beaming between different staves and between notes having contrast stem directions.

3) n-tuplets other than triplets.

4) More flexible text information on header section. This is important for, say, including subtitles for/of pieces.

I'll soon be back...

</quote>

Let's have fors, againsts and suggestions...

Re: Wishes...

Reply #1
I heartily endorse Ertugrul's suggestions, except possibly for one I don't understand:

2B) Does "crocket" mean "crotchet"? What would it mean to beam halves? How would you distinguish a beamed crotchet (quarter) from a quaver (eighth)? How would NWC treat these on playback?

When we're talking about improvements in beaming, let's not forget the ability to beam over rests. There are hacky ways to do this now but they're a royal pain and not always effective. From the NG I get the idea this would be a popular enhancement.

Along with more text flexibility, I'd like to see a standard slot for lyricist information in the File/Info; this should show up in a printout above the top staff at the left, opposite the author's name.

It would be nice if the user could have some control over the positioning and shape of slurs and ties.

Finally (?), I'd really like to see a fix to the long-standing bug whereby NWC allows the user to tie two notes of different pitch (e.g., C-sharp and C-natural). Judging from the Forum and NG, this has got to be the biggest time-waster in the whole product.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #2
<h1> 2C ... That's exactly what I need! </h1>

Re: Wishes...

Reply #3
I'd second most of these. Not sure about beaming halfs and quarters, though.

I'd also like to see the ability to insert "decorative" slurs and ties (such as a dotted line tie when a lyric syllable is double in one verse, single in another.) I'd also like the ability to control slurs and ties by repeat -- in other words, apply the slur/tie in first pass, skip on first repeat, apply in second, and so on. Great for working out lyric timing.

Another great addition would be chording in some fashion other than the current "only two note durations, and they must be stacked" approach. The two note duration I can live with. But entering C major chord with C-G quarters and E-F walking eighths is a sorely lacking feature. Also, I'd like to be able to combine rests and notes, regardless of duration.

And on the NWC side:

1) Ability to click on a measure and play from there.

2) Ability to mute staves.

3) Ability to hide staves.

-- all of the above current NWC capabilities

4) Master volume slider built into the player.

5) Master tempo slider built into the player, range from 10% to 200% of scored tempo. Master tempo imposed as a percentage over the scored tempo setting(s).

6) A special NWP format that NWC can save to. Can be read by NWP but not NWC. Allows pieces to be published, but not read/modified, via the internet.

I do vocal arrangements (SSAA, SATB, TTBB, etc) and like to provide my singers with NWC scores and NWP to use for practice. The above items would greatly facilitate the use of NWP as a practice tool, and #6 alleviates many worries about "publishing" original works on the internet.

And, lastly, the ability to import/export NIFF. For me, especially to import. SharpEye music scanner is great, but of little value without some means (other than MIDI, which results in a less than desirable score) to import its output.

My two-cents worth.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #4
1. Play in reverse, fast forward & rewind during playback.
2. Inverting\retrograding notes for 20th century music. Like flip-h and flip-v in images.
3. Beaming over a rest.
4. Random note generation via Ctrl+R or something like that.
5. Time sigs that change back and forth each bar without putting a new one in each time. 6/8<->4/4.
6. Customizeable beaming arrangemets for uncommon time sigs.
eg. 7/8 into groups of 4 quavers then 3 or 5 then 2.
7. In the goto box; anchors to Chorus 1, Verse 3 etc. a-la html.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #5
Here's another one. Since layering is the only way to achieve certain effects, how about a keystroke (maybe the [ key?) to either 1) toggle layering on/off as in the page setup dialog, or 2) toggle layer with next staff on/off for the current staff as in the staff properties dialog? Or at least a menu option in View to do this.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #6
Grant -
How _do_ you beam over rests with those "hacky" methods you mentioned?

Re: Wishes...

Reply #7
I hope all this leads to software that will produce shaped notes for sacred harp or the "stamps-baxter" singing school style note heads--and quickly!


Re: Wishes...

Reply #9
5) Master tempo slider built into the player, range from 10% to 200% of scored tempo. Master tempo imposed as a percentage over the scored tempo setting(s).

Has the addition of a tempo slider been considered by the programmers?  It was a natural feature of the old <Pianola> technology of bygone years and seems to be a common feature of all available MIDI players and Karaoke players.   It is also available in Sibelius and Scorch, so one would think it should be relatively easily implemented in NWC.  Am I correct in thinking this?

I'd dearly love to have this facility when I'm conducting extra "scratch" choir rehearsals at home during our summer shut-down in absence of an accompanist.

Bill.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #10
I support most (hell, let's say all) of the original suggestions.  I'm assuming that "beaming crotchets and minums (halves) refers to the normal tremulo notation, with beams between the stems, but not quite touching them.  If it doesn't, then I will add that.

AND BREAVES!!!!!!!

Besides the alternating time signatures, how about compound signatures?  You know, 3/4 + 2/4, to indicate the grouping of beats in a measure?

More control over the grouping of staves, to separate families of instruments.

Etc., and so forth ---

Re: Wishes...

Reply #11
Grant wrote :
Quote
When we're talking about improvements in beaming, let's not forget the ability to beam over rests. There are hacky ways to do this now but they're a royal pain and not always effective. From the NG I get the idea this would be a popular enhancement.

I don't understand this comment. Beaming over rests is available as standard in version 1.75 nevermind version 2.  All you do is to highlight the ending notes that enclose the rest and then do a Ctrl B operation.

Have I misunderstood what Grant is asking for?
Rich.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #12
I support all the suggestions in this thread, but as I use NWC mainly to produce vocal scores, I'd like to add one further wish: Word Extenders.

Word Extenders are horizontal lines that remind amateur singers to hold tied or slurred notes. In many notation programs Word Extenders are used by default. Many organizations publishing vocal scores request the use of Word Extenders.
Inserting Word Extenders by postprocessing with a desktop publishing program is hard work, easily leads to omissions, and makes re-editing scores extremely labor intensive.

I think that NWC handles spacing of words and syllables very well, and I believe that addition of horizontal lines from the end of a syllable past the note head of the last of connected notes should be possible as a lyric option. Having this I could easily fix several hundreds of scores to meet the requirements of the Barbershop Harmony Society.

--Chris
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #13
I support all the suggestions in this thread, but as I use NWC mainly to produce vocal scores, I'd like to add one further wish: Word Extenders.

Christian, I agree word extenders would be a great help, but  in both 1.75 and 2, you can add reasonable approximations to word extenders as text in vocal scores, using  periods or underscores.  I like a string of dots, usually in <staff lyric> font.  I usually insert the text just before the word or hang it on a suitable object in the staff in the vicinity of the word to be extended.  Sometimes you have to fiddle a bit with leading spaces to locate the start of your line.  If the line is longer than the allowable text length you may have to extend it with a further text line and locate it by fiddling with justification and leading/trailing spaces.

I know it sounds tedious, but for my purposes it beats post-processing because I distribute NWC files as training aids, not printed scores.  Once you have a few extenders in a given score you can copy and paste earlier ones of appropriate length.

One thing you do have to remember for printed scores is to get your pagination right and ready for printing before you add word extenders or you can get into a mess.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #14
1.) Has anybody mentioned pitch bend range yet? It is the number one thing on my wish list (although you've all mentioned some really awesome things that I wouldn't mind). I need octave pitch bends!

2.) Also, it would be good if it could import midis perfectly, with triplets correctly notated and controllers like pitch bends correctly imported.

3.) Being able to add vibrato to a single note. It would show the notation for vibrato (with a wiggly line), and would only apply to one note instead of needing MPCs

4.) Notation to show certain MPCs graphically. I know that other midi programs actually visually show pitch bends on the staff. I can't remember the name of the program though.

5.) Being able to manually set any midi controller value.

I would also love to have grouping of non-triplets that someone else mentioned. I transcribe a lot of guitar solos, and a lot of the time they just play as fast as possible and aren't always perfectly timed. The use of odd groupings like 5 and 7 are quite common in guitar notation.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #15
Not sure what Christian means "word extenders" but if it's the dash - underscore - after a syllable to indicate a long note, I have been using modified fonts for lyrics for ages, where I have made the ^ into an underscore line __ (because underscore in NWC1 was always for spacing) . I think I even made a post about it in Forum. Also I made a NWC score with 2, 4, 6, 8, length dashes to insert in bars where the syllable is held for a long time. I just bring that file up and set it in restore down, and when I need it bring it up and copy and paste in the relevant spot. Of course if you're using the modified font, which I just call Font2, you have to send it to other members who use the viewer to copy to their windows/fonts file.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #16
Here is the definition of Word Extenders by the Barbershop Harmony Society:

"When notes are tied over in the melody line, use word extenders to indicate that the word or syllable is sustained. Word extenders are solid horizontal lines, level with the bottom of the letters in the word, that extend from the end of the word or syllable or any punctuation that follows the word or syllable to the end of the next note head."

Underscores inserted as text can be used to do this, but what I dislike is the trial and error process needed to adjust the length and placement. System breaks are painful as well. And what I really hate is to redo these steps if the score is changed. Even the free or cheap versions of other notation programs have this feature included. For me having Word Extenders in NWC would make it perfect for my needs in arranging vocal scores.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #17
I agree that word extenders would be a useful feature, but your statement:
Even the free or cheap versions of other notation programs have this feature included.
is not an argument that this would be an easy thing to program.

The free/cheap versions are crippled versions of much more expensive software with a feature set indicative of their cost.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Wishes...

Reply #18
I agree that word extenders would be a useful feature, but your statement is not an argument that this would be an easy thing to program.

Rick may very well be right on this point. My proposal was based on my feeling that NWC (for my needs) handles horizontal placement/spacing of word syllables and notes very well and I thought that this information could be used to calculate the length of automated word extenders. But I have no idea of how difficult this would be to program.

Using inserted underscores as a workaround is not straightforward, as every extender placement has to be checked using print preview.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #19
It may be possible to make this a little easier (text extenders) by using 2 text entries.

The first one would be left justified at the appropriate position, padded with leading spaces if necessary, to commence the line in the correct place.

The second would be right justified (probably at next note/bar), padded with trailing spaces if necessary, to end the line in the correct place.  Make both lines long enough to overlap sufficiently to take up any variation in placement.

I have used a similar technique to create special ending lines longer than one bar (using my *Dings font suites).
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #20
To get a dashed extender just insert pairs of hyphens separated by spaces after the extended syllable:

"word-- -- --"

This gives a reasonable (although not perfect) effect.

But there's a bug. It's fine when you enter it in the Lyric Editor, but if you subsequently go back into the editor, all the spaces have been removed and it doesn't work any more!


Re: Wishes...

Reply #21
I'm just running off to work so I don't have time to fiddle with this to see how wrong I really am, but in version 2, you can adjust note properties so they don't trigger a syllable, and in the lyric editor you can set the underscore to be visible.  Doing both seems to give somewhat of a word extender in the lyric, although I'm not sure of alignments. 

I thought I'd throw this into the forum in case it hasn't been touched on yet.  If it hasn't been, perhaps people can give it a try and see if it fits the bill. 

Re: Wishes...

Reply #22
...in version 2, you can adjust note properties so they don't trigger a syllable, and in the lyric editor you can set the underscore to be visible.  Doing both seems to give somewhat of a word extender in the lyric, although I'm not sure of alignments.

Visible lyric underscores make the starting word/syllable longer, and make the corresponding note take up more horizontal space. Unfortunately, any extenders created this way cannot extend all the way under the next note head, or into the next bar, as they really should.

Obviously, David's suggestion can be used to give the singer a hint to extend the word, but it does not help to carry the word all the way.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #23
Yes, I see what you mean.  Seems the problem could be solved if the length of a lyric syllable (including an underscore used as an extension of the syllable) didn't affect the horizontal space taken up by the note it's anchored to.  However, if it didn't, long words would end up with really messy notation. 

I think the answer is to go back to a (very) long-outstanding request, which is to give us the ability to draw a line that could be flat, or curved by pushing a point in the centre.  It could be dotted, dashed, or solid at the user's choice. 

Does this work-around come close to what you need?

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1^|Opts:Slur=Upward
|Text|Text:"___________"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-14|Placement:AtNextNote
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Text|Text:"_______"|Font:StaffItalic|Pos:-14|Justify:Right
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5
|Rest|Dur:8th
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End


(sorry about the faulty timing per bar.  I started with something else, and didn't think to check the part for accuracy since it had little to do with what I was trying out)

Re: Wishes...

Reply #24
Sorry that this is an NWC1 file, but how does this differ from what you want?  Is it that the word is "held" over different notes?  Even if this it the case couldn't a variation on it work?

Re: Wishes...

Reply #25
Does this work-around come close to what you need?

Yes, David, this is very close. I made some slight adjustments, to get the extender line under the head of the last tied/slurred note, and now it looks nice. Similar methods have been suggested by Rick and Lawrie, so I guess that this is the best workaround available for the moment. It matches the definitions by the Harmony Society fairly closely. Here are my adjustments:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-3
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1^|Opts:Slur=Upward
|Text|Text:"_______________"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:-12
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-2|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:-1|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:0|Opts:Slur=Upward,Lyric=Never
|Text|Text:"_______"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:-12|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Bar
|Text|Text:"_______"|Font:StaffLyric|Pos:-12|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-1|Opts:Lyric=Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-5
|Rest|Dur:8th
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #26
I experimented a little more with text word extenders. They can be connected to lyric "handles" to get them to start and end in the correct horizontal location. To align properly, the same font should be used for lyric and text. The only drawback I can see, is that this way the extenders are vertically placed somewhat lower than the lyrics.

I attach a NWC2 example.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #27
G'day Christian,
I've taken the liberty of modifying your example a little - it is somewhat simpler, the extender lines up vertically a little better and it doesn't need underscores within the lyrics.

It does however take a little fiddling and several visits to print/preview to get right...

Whaddya reckon?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #28
I've always been happy with this style when needed

Just choose which notes you want the extender on, Change lyrics to always, add the appropriate number of minus signs.

Job done.
Rich.

Re: Wishes...

Reply #29
Thank you Lawrie,
The extender line ends nicely under the last note head if right justified, exactly as it should. It is probably not necessary to use a lyric underscore to end the line. I would very much prefer not to use the lyric underscore, without it the vertical position of the extender line is perfect.

I thought the start of the extender line was more problematic, as it should start right after the word or any subsequent punctuation mark, regardless of the length of the word, the length of the corresponding note or the position in the bar. I could not always make the lines start precisely in the same way in all the cases without the use of a lyric underscore, but I may have not have been systematic enough.

I guess he basic problem is that the word end and the line start are anchored to different notes or bar lines, and are affected by the NWC spacing mechanisms. Perhaps this can be avoided by anchoring the starting line to the same note where the line starts from, using spaces to make the line start after the word, like the attachment.

I appreciate the simplicity of Rich's method, but unfortunately this does not meet the requirements of as specified by the Harmony Society. Dashes are used between syllables, word extenders are solid lines.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Wishes...

Reply #30
I've always been happy with this style when needed
Except that your example makes it look like the the lyric is: word extendertest rather than word extender test

Everyone is missing "the elephant in the room" here. The biggest problem is that "der" pushes the barline to the right. This makes for more pages unless you reduce the lyric fontsize to where the lyrics become unreadable. And this is for a three letter syllable. It gets to be a real mess with "breadth, "strength", "straight", "through" etc.

The Staff Lyrics->Configuration needs a checkbox to "Ignore Barlines".
Staff Lyrics->Lyric n needs to allow for some sort of tag which will cause the syllable to align to the left of the note.
The Note Properties->Lyric Syllable: dropdown should be:
  • Default
  • Always
  • Never
  • Extend
That won't work when there is more than 1 lyric. Let me think about this ...
Registered user since 1996

Re: Wishes...

Reply #31
Thank you Rick,
I think you are exactly on the right track. What you say would make many things easier to contol. I support your clear proposal.
--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine