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Topic: Controlling the length of hairpins (Read 36830 times) previous topic - next topic

Controlling the length of hairpins

Extending a tip by David Palmquist,
here is a means  (in NWC2) to make-up hairpins to whatever length you may
need (The sample is a Cresc. hairpin with rather exaggerated length):

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Text|Text:"            "|Font:PageTitleText|Pos:0|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

(2008-04-22: Corrected as required). Haymo.

Re: Controlling the legth of hairpins

Reply #1 –
legth ;-)

Re: Controlling the legth of hairpins

Reply #2 –
Doeth that go with my armth?  ;)

BTW Haymo, the first line in your clip is missing a "!"

The clip should read:
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Text|Text:"            "|Font:PageTitleText|Pos:0|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #3 –
Often, a dynamic and a hairpin need to be set on the same note. I've found this to be useful:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=2000|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:0
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:0z|Opts:Stem=Down,XNoteSpace=1,Muted
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=2000|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:0
|Rest|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000
|Rest|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Opts:Stem=Down
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
The first measure uses a grace note to stop the hairpin at the barline, while in measure 2 the hairpin is allowed to continue. If you have layers or other staves, you may have to adjust the durations of the hidden rests for the effect you want.

This would be more flexible if hairpins were always visible, but alas they inherit visibilty from the first note/rest. From a playback standpoint, hairpins function the same as cresc., decresc. and dim., whose visibility can be controlled.

Edit: added strikethru due to <this reply> (thanks, Peter). Hairpins are visible if any note they encompass is visible. I still think they should always be visible, but NWC's handling is not unreasonable.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Rick G.
This would be more flexible if hairpins were always visible, but alas they inherit visibilty from the first note/rest.
Of course, that first note can be headless, stemless and muted. It will still take up space, but if it's a grace note, not much....

But I agree that visability of the hairpins should be independent of the notes. It would make things a whole lot easier.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #5 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
It will still take up space, but if it's a grace note, not much....
You're right. this is a bit tighter:
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=2000|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:0
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:0z|Opts:Diminuendo,Muted
|Rest|Dur:Half,DblDotted|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #6 –
I hadn't thought of using the whole note as a grace note. Good idea.

We still need a grace note without a hairpin if we want to stop the hairpin at the barline in the printout:

Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:8th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=2000|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:0
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:0z|Opts:Diminuendo,Muted
|Rest|Dur:Half,DblDotted|Opts:Stem=Up,Diminuendo,VertOffset=2000|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:0z|Opts:Muted
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #7 –
I am confused!

Firstly a hairpin is visible if any (even just one) of the notes or rests that it covers are visible.
And
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-11|Justify:Right
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:f|Pos:-11|Justify:Right
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:0^|Opts:Crescendo|Visibility:Never
|Dynamic|Style:ff|Pos:-11|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
seems to do what's required without most of the trickery implied above.

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Peter Edwards –
a hairpin is visible if any (even just one) of the notes or rests that it covers are visible.
That's one too many, IMHO. Especially since an invisible dim. will do the same thing as an invisible hairpin.

Using 'Best Fit' causes the dynamics to wander all over the place. Accidentals will shift them and they are unlikely to align vertically down a bunch of staves, which is unsightly.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #9 –
Hi Peter -

Others may feel differently, but for me, I guess, the hairpins in your example crowd the dynamics too closely and require some adjustment to look right in the printout. And though you're right about hairpin visibility in the UI, the hairpins under invisible notes actually are invisible in the printout. If they're in the middle of a line, this doesn't matter (the hairpin connects across the invisible note anyway), but it can matter when adjusting the beginning and end points of the hairpin, which is what we've been talking about here. Dunno if this clarifies matters much....

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #10 –
Rick

You said
Quote
This would be more flexible if hairpins were always visible, but alas they inherit visibilty from the first note/rest.
. This is totally incorrect.

William

This clip
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

shows clearly that the hairpin extends over the hidden notes too,

and if you add another staff with
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

then you can see that the hidden notes are fully playing their part in the printout.

So although there are undoubted imperfections in the hairpin functioning, I'm still in the dark about the problem ;-)

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #11 –
Peter,

Don't be misled by my error (and evidently Rick's as well) concerning the behavior of hairpins with invisible notes. They don't behave quite as I thought they did (should have checked more thoroughly before posting, instead of relying on my memory) and I thank you for the correction. But this is really a side issue. The issue in this thread is how to adjust the length of hairpins when the program gets them wrong, for whatever reason. In Haymo's original post (typo-corrected version posted by Lawrie a few posts later), the problem is a hairpin that doesn't extend the full length of the bar without adjustment (remove the invisible grace note just before the barline and watch what happens). What others here, including me, have been suggesting is methods to go the other way: to shorten hairpins when they crowd the dynamics or extend past a barline into the next measure. There is more than just aesthetics at issue here. As NWC draws the hairpins, they sometimes make the music difficult to read. Since we don't have program commands to shorten, lengthen, or move the hairpins (except vertically, in conjunction with the dynamic that precedes them), tricks like this are necessary, and we are fortunate to have them available.

Is this clear enough?....;-)

Bill

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #12 –
Thanks Bill,

You've summarised the problem neatly.

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #13 –
 I still don't see why everything has to be so complex, and as for the original tip, I don't see that it actually does anything since the hairpin will in any case extend nearly to the barline.

But to demonstrate simplicity (without grace notes or headless/tailless notes) how about this?

Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Instrument|Name:"Church Organ"|Patch:19|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127|Pos:11|Visibility:Always
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|MPC|Controller:exp|Style:Linear Sweep|TimeRes:Whole|SweepRes:1|Pt1:0,127|Pt2:1,64|Pos:7|Visibility:Always
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:64th|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem,VertOffset=-14|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:0
|Rest|Dur:16th,DblDotted|Opts:Stem=Down,Diminuendo,VertOffset=-20
|Rest|Dur:Half,DblDotted|Opts:Stem=Down,Diminuendo,VertOffset=-20
|MPC|Controller:exp|Style:Absolute|TimeRes:Half|SweepRes:1|Pt1:0,127|Pos:7|Visibility:Always
|Bar
|Dynamic|Style:mf|Pos:-7|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|RestChord|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Down,ArticulationsOnStem,VertOffset=-14|Dur2:Whole|Pos2:0
|MPC|Controller:exp|Style:Linear Sweep|TimeRes:Half|SweepRes:1|Pt1:0,127|Pt2:1,64|Pos:7|Visibility:Always
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Down,Diminuendo,VertOffset=-20
|MPC|Controller:exp|Style:Absolute|TimeRes:Half|SweepRes:1|Pt1:0,127|Pos:7|Visibility:Always
|Bar
|Note|Dur:64th|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Obviously the rests need to be offset to 2000, but I've kept them local for demonstration purposes. And you can really play around with hairpin placement by adjusting the lengths of the rests. And the MPCs show how to get the correct playback too (which grace notes tend to mess up).

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #14 –
Nice work, Peter (since the instrumentation you've chosen is "church organ," I guess I have to point out that it's a swell solution ;-).

Due to the limitations on restchords, though, I'm not sure it will work for everything. And the grace note solution will often be simpler to apply. Results may be better or worse with one or the other, depending on the situation.

As to playback, yes, grace notes used the way this thread suggests will mess it up. Writing a properly-sounding trill messes up the printout, too. In these cases, and in many others, the proper solution is a separate playback staff.

In summary, your method of working with hairpins strikes me as neither better nor worse than the grace note method - just different. And that's good. It's nice to have more than one tool in the toolbox.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #15 –
Haven't jumped in before because I was travelling. However, Peter wrote:
Quote
I still don't see why everything has to be so complex, and as for the original tip, I don't see that it actually does anything since the hairpin will in any case extend nearly to the barline.

Haymo kindly started this thread by crediting my solution to his problem, which was to lengthen a hairpin on a single whole note when the page setup option "Increase note spacing for larger note durations" is deliberately not used.  My workaround avoids the hairpin looking like an accent.  That's all I was thinking of.  No more, no less.

It is nice to see such a lively debate, though.  One of the great strengths of NWC is this forum.

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #16 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Peter,
Don't be misled by my error (and evidently Rick's as well) concerning the behavior of hairpins with invisible notes.
Sorry. I confused hairpin visiblity with slur visiblity. It seems arbitrary that they are different.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Rick G.
It seems arbitrary that they are different.

I agree.

Bill

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #18 –
Hairpins can be extended to just past the barline:
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0|Opts:Crescendo
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:0z|Opts:Crescendo,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Contrast measure 3 with measure 1. The invisible, muted grace note extends the hairpin but has no effect on playback.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #19 –
It is interesting to see how one can adjust the lengths of hairpins, but for many "ordinaty" users of the program, without technical skills, but with some degree of musical ability. it would be highly desirable to have a simple way of achieving the desired end.

Tony

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #20 –
I agree - totally! I was struggling with hairpin-lengths only yesterday, and it took me way too long to make them acceptable.

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #21 –
Quote
it would be highly desirable to have a simple way of achieving the desired end

I don't see how you can select the hairpin since it goes with the notes it modifies.  Is the answer to have a separate hairpin that can be entered as we now enter dynamic marks, just before the first note affected by it, with an option to set its length?  If so, what units should we measure in - millimetres, fractions of inches, equivalent notehead widths, or somesuch?  Any unit other than notehead width is going to create problems because WYSOSINWYGWP (what you see on screen is not what you get when printing).

If Eric is able to give us this, I do NOT want to lose the current hairpin.  It meets my needs very well.

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #22 –
Normally a hairpin is continuous over its (successive) notes, but it can be broken by inserting an invisible dynamic variance (rinforzando is suitably incongruous ;-). This has no effect on playback, whereas an actual dynamic probably would alter it.

This is particularly useful at a system break where the appropriate height of the hairpin needs to be different on the two systems, e.g. where high notes have forced it skywards on the first system but have left it floating way too high over lower notes on the succeeding system.
 

Re: Controlling the length of hairpins

Reply #23 –
Great tip, Peter.  Thanks!