NoteWorthy Composer Forum

Airfont340   The trombone sound is terrible

I absolutely agree! 

Of course you know that, with the help of some dedicated software, you can make your personal collection of patches (i.e. sounds) picking your best-of-the-best from many different s.f. Do you?

Yeah, but I'm far too lazy

So many great questions. When you say editor, do you mean NWC 2 where I do my composing?

Dynamics are the same as the piano.
My editor uses the Windows computer standard sound font. It sounds fine in the editor. Trombone is its own channel. The muting does not  happen on playback in the NCW Viewer as well. I’m not sure how to check what sound font the Viewer is using. The difference appears constant with the three fonts I have loaded (unison 2 , FluidR3, and Titanic)

My editor output is Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth. I’m not sure how to add Unison or whatever to the editor. Or how to add Microsoft to the Viewer (if that will solve the problem).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned recently is that the "play to" feature of the Viewer is only available if you are running the 2.8 beta version. (I'm pretty sure that is true, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

I assume "soundfonts" also includes "VSTi" instruments.

I use:
a) "Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra" for most everything instrumental, also piano.
b) "Soundiron Olympus Micro Choir" VSTi in Kontakt 5 player for choral sounds.
c) Chorium.sf2 as a standard soundfont for "internal use", I think I also used it for a few brass instruments a few years ago - but I'm not uptodate here.

H.M.

Hello everyone.
I have bought the NWC in the past and am really happy with it.
Now I would like to go to the next step.
I downloaded the files of the "Sonatina Symphonic Orchestra"
I downloaded the Loobe1 virtual cable
Now I don't know in practice how to make them work.
What should I do in practice?

....the default we all seem to be using is the CoolSoft VitrualMIDISynth....

G'day Raffaele,
from what I've read Sonatina in VSTi form comes with its own sample player.  I assume this is a VST host of some kind.  If this is the version you have then I recommend you check out a couple of how to type documents from Rich Nagle, and myself.  Rich's document is better than mine.  They are on the Scripto:
https://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Vst

I also note there seems to be a soundfont version of Sonatina in which case you'd need a synth that accepts soundfonts - the default we all seem to be using is the CoolSoft VitrualMIDISynth.  If this is the version of Sonatina you have then a document by Richard Woodroffe in the same location on the Scripto, just under Rich Nagle's document is aimed at the Coolsoft synth.

G'day Raffaele,
from what I've read Sonatina in VSTi form comes with its own sample player.  I assume this is a VST host of some kind.  If this is the version you have then I recommend you check out a couple of how to type documents from Rich Nagle, and myself.  Rich's document is better than mine.  They are on the Scripto:
https://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Vst

I also note there seems to be a soundfont version of Sonatina in which case you'd need a synth that accepts soundfonts - the default we all seem to be using is the CoolSoft VitrualMIDISynth.  If this is the version of Sonatina you have then a document by Richard Woodroffe in the same location on the Scripto, just under Rich Nagle's document is aimed at the Coolsoft synth.

I already use the Virtual midi Synt and I get along very well with the SF2s.
I wanted to start experimenting and opening up to the world of VSTs.
Before buying any Garritans or anything, I wanted to make sure my NWC was compatible.
I can't spend money without the security of being able to use it.

<snip>
Are the sounds the same as the Sonatina VST?

Not quite all. Some of us use SyFonOne. I find it a little easier to use than CoolSoft, but either of them will work well with soundfonts, and both of them are free.

Bill, do you have a reputable source for that one? I am having some issues with CoolSoft and thought I might switch to see if it resolves them.

Eurekaaaa!
I was able to hear the VST sounds.

Now the problem is understanding why they feel uncoordinated. The violins feel first tied then plucked then held etc.

Is there sonatina sf2? Very good.

Bill, do you have a reputable source for that one? I am having some issues with CoolSoft and thought I might switch to see if it resolves them.

BTW, the developer suggests using an ASIO driver. I've actually had better luck without one.

Good news!
That one you'll just have to fiddle around with I guess.  Given those are all effects advertised for the Sonatina VSTi I'm sure there will be instructions somewhere that will help.

Using VST and VSTi's is different to using a non VST GM synth.

It is extremely unusual for Noteworthy to crash.  Not saying I've never seen it happen, but it is very rare.

Perhaps if you try a different VST host?

Loopbe is known to work with NWC so I don't expect it is a problem.
As Sonatina comes with its own player maybe you could try a different VST host.  I'm not sure if you can load the Sonatina samples into a third party VST host application or not so you might need to look at a different sound set too.

Of course this is entirely optional.  If you have no desire to experiment in this fashion that's fine.

Now, while I cannot speak for NWC, I am aware that when it was first envisioned MIDI was (and really still is) king.  So NWC was designed to output to MIDI, presumably in order to maximise options.  You can drive any MIDI synth you can connect to, be it internal or external:
Electric piano, organ, keyboard, software synth module, internal sound card (with HW synth), external sound module, VST host &etc.

There is a beta of the viewer that has the ability to load soundfonts, so I'd guess this is a direction NWC was planning to go.  Unfortunately that beta is now 3 years old and there have been no updates so I can only assume that something has gotten in the way of the developer doing this work.  As NWC does everything I need I am happy to await developments.

An inbuilt Soundfont player and/or VST host would be amazing but is not really necessary.  I certainly would not like to lose the current MIDI functionality if that became a necessary tradeoff.

You are very kind to answer. I really thank you!
I downloaded Vsthost as per the explanation downloaded from the site.
initially it worked. Now I don't know what happened but NWC gets stuck.
I downloaded Loopb1, Now it doesn't jam, but it doesn't feel. Can you give me the installation instruction link?

Did you mean this link?
https://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Vst

Intendo  VST per Dummies Like Me
https://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful/vstfdum.pdf

Mi spiego meglio.
Queste sono le indicazioni che mi hanno permesso di ascoltare ieri per la prima volta i suoni di Sonatina.
Oggi invece non so come mai ma non funziona più come ieri. Si inceppa NWC.

From Google translate:
I'll explain.
These are the indications that allowed me to listen to the sounds of Sonatina for the first time yesterday.
Today, however, I do not know why but it no longer works like it did yesterday. NWC jams.

Umm, OK.  I have no idea why NWC should stop working.
Although, if I recall correctly, you need to make sure the VST host is loaded before you start NWC.  If it isn't, NWC shouldn't crash, but just not make any sounds.
To be clear, the MIDI standard is what's called an "unreliable transport".  This means that the protocol does not guarantee that the message gets from the transmitter to the receiver.  For this reason there is no communication from the VST host to NWC so I cannot see how the VST host could possibly cause NWC to lockup.
Can you describe when the lockup occurs?  Do you have time to get into |Tools|Options|MIDI (tab) to change the output device?
It may be there is a problem with Loopbe (you indicated you used this instead of MIDIYoke which is described in the explanation)

Summing up.
The day before yesterday I downloaded
1) Midiox
2) VSTHOST
3) Syntfont (Which I still don't understand what it is for)
Once installed
I opened Midiox
I turned on VSTHOST
On VSTHOST I loaded Sonatina.dll as a plugin
I have set the midi input both in Midi Mapper
Et voilà (Cit) I heard the sounds. Although not consistent, as they alternate pizzicato held etc.

yesterday I did the same sequence again but I didn't get the result

Ok, let's see.

MIDIox itself isn't actually needed.  It is a monitoring tool.  HOWEVER, you do need a virtual MIDI cable ,either Loopbe OR MIDIYoke (which comes with MIDIox if I recall correctly).  Once installed you don't need to run it again as it becomes a driver that is always available.

VSTHost is an environment that VSTi's run in.  To explain, VST consists of 2 parts:
The VST Host (that VSTHost fulfils - don't be confused by the name coincidence)
VSTi's (Virtual Studio Instruments) - these can be all kinds of things, including a synthesizer.

SYNTHFont is a VSTi that is used as a synthesizer that plays the samples in a soundfont.  You don't need it for Sonatina so it can be left out.

Sonatina.dll is another VSTi.  This is the one that gives you the Sonatina sounds.

I would open VSTHost and make sure Sonatina.dll is still being loaded and that it is connected to the virtual MIDI cable that you want.  Then make sure the VSTHost config gets saved - I mention this in the guide.

Load NWC and make sure it is using the same virtual MIDI cable you configured in VSTHost

Once it is working again make sure you save the VSTHost config.
From now on you should only need to load VSTHost and then run NWC and it should all just work.

I hope this helps.

I really thank you.
I just restarted the PC and will do the live operations

1) I opened Vsthost and a gray screen appeared with two windows "engine input" on the left and "engine output" on the right
2) On the "File" window I click on "New plugnin" and select "Sonatina orchestra.dll. Now a window connected to a yellow wire with" engine output "has appeared
3) I check back on "Device Midi setting" and I notice that both midiyoke and loopbe internal midi pop up. Could that be going into conflict? Anyway Midiyoke selection 1
4) I open NWC, remove the Virtual midisint and add midiyoke1 from the device used by the playback.
and nothing. Stuck and then Crash

I suspect it might be a good idea to remove either MIDIYoke or Loopbe.  I don't see any benefit to having 2 devices that do the same thing and which may conflict.  Loopbe seems to have a better reputation than MIDIYoke so perhaps keep it and remove MIDIYoke?

Within VSTHost it might be a good idea to make sure there are no conflicts or double ups (say a connection to both Loopbe AND MIDIYoke).  Also make sure the output of VSTHost isn't somehow connected back to the input.

Actually, as a last resort it might be worth removing Loopbe, MIDIYoke AND VSTHost, clean booting and reinstalling just Loopbe and VSTHost.  During the uninstall, if there is an option to keep configs I would say NO as there may be a problem in the config that's causing the issue.

No need to uninstall Sonatina as it's just a .dll that you load into VSTHost.

Another thought, have you tried Sonatina's supplied player?

No. Non conosco questo player sonatina. Si scarica a parte? O si scarica insieme al pacchetto?

Note: This library comes with it’s own sample player, no other software is required.

From Google Translate:
"No. I don't know this sonatina player. Does it download separately? Or does it download together with the package?"
====
All I know about it is what I've read.  I haven't downloaded it and thus have not tried it either.

On the page where I found info on the SSO ( https://vstbuzz.com/freebies/sonatina-symphonic-orchestra/ ) is the following text:From this I assumed there was an included player in the download.

Ahh, I've just realised that the Sonatina.dll is the player, and you still need a host like VSTHost. 
I'm sorry for the confusion.  It's 13 years since I wrote that guide and I haven't played with VST for probably 11 of those years as the advent of a soundfont capable softsynth (I think it was Coolsoft) made it unnecessary for me.  My primary needs for NWC are notation, not playback.  I just need a sufficiently good playback to make sure what I'm writing will work.  I certainly don't need the power of full blown VST.

<snip>
Do you think VSTs are really much more effective than SF2s?

I can think that thanks to the pan functions etc that are in the multipoint controller function, I get the same quality?

Is it really necessary to switch to VST sounds?
I am obviously speaking out of ignorance.

For what VST is designed for, yes.  But VST is more about music production, not simply playback of a MIDI data stream.  E.G. I would never consider using a playback of a simple soundfont as a professional recording, but VST is used all the time for professional recording and mastering.  That's the primary purpose of the technology.
For more information, this Wikipedia article is well worth reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Studio_Technology
VST is much, much more than this.  Think all kinds of special effects, filters etc. and considerable control over these things.
No.  If a simple synth and soundfont does what you need then there is no point in adding the complexity of VST.  For the record I believe that a soundfont and synth is far more appropriate than VST for probably every NWC user there is.  Of course, I stand to be corrected on this

Quindi mi pare di capire che con sf2 non si possono ottenere risultati professionali... Sigh
Quindi in un percorso di crescita il vst mi sa che è una tappa obbligata.
Se avessi la sicurezza che con nwc potesse girare tranquillamente i vst, acquisterei sicuramente uno.

From Google Translate:
So I understand that with sf2 you can not get professional results ... Sigh
So in a path of growth I know that the vst is a must.
If I had the certainty that with nwc it could easily run the vst, I would definitely buy one.
======
Umm, what growth path do you have in mind?  How professional do you want?
Remember, NWC's primary purpose is creating music notation.  The fact that it's a pretty good sequencer is almost serendipitous. 
I think it would be helpful if you have a very clear picture of what you want to achieve.

The quality of sound you get from a soundfont is directly related to the quality of the soundfont, BUT for recording and production purposes you need more than just a soundfont.
If your aim is to get into music recording and production then you need a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation), not a notation package.
That said, a notation package is a great starting point, it's just not enough by itself.

As mentioned above, I think the real question is what do you want to achieve? 
OK, Do you just want a nice sounding playback of music you've written?  Then a synth and soundfont should be fine.  The downside is finding a soundfont you like.  I call this the "Soundfont Shuffle" 
(Actually, the reason I created this thread was for people to share their preferred soundfonts and the reasons for their preference.)

OR,
do you want to create recordings for distribution or public performance?  You need a DAW, lots of time, dedication and experience, and probably some expensive addons.

N.B. I would definitely NOT be spending money on VST stuff, or soundfonts for that matter, just yet.  The first thing to do is explore the free offerings that are available to see their functionality and to determine if this is the direction you want/need to go.

By the way, NWC does NOT run the VST, the same as it does not run any synthesizer.  NWC does not create sounds, it outputs a MIDI data stream that is directed to a MIDI output.  Where the MIDI stream goes after that is irrelevant to NWC, it literally doesn't care, it just pumps data out the configured port. 
If the MIDI data eventually reaches a synthesizer then the synth will create sound as described by the MIDI data.
If the MIDI data is directed to a VST host then the VST host is responsible for what happens after it receives the data.  NWC is no longer involved.  Just the same as if the data was sent to a synthesizer.