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Topic: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores? (Read 11512 times) previous topic - next topic

How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

I have a music score with a rhythm indication on top which states that 2 eight notes should be sung/played as triplets (see Capture.png in attachment).
What is the correct name for this indicator?
Is there a way to add this indicator in NWC songs with the current 2.51 version?
Could the future user object facility be used to create these kind of objects?

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Bart –
I have a music score with a rhythm indication on top which states that 2 eight notes should be sung/played as triplets (see Capture.png in attachement).
What is the correct name for this indicator?
Is there a way to add this indicator in NWC songs with the current 2.51 version?
Could the future user object facility be used to create these kind of objects?
I don't know what that is called, but it's present as a character in one of the custom fonts that can be used with NWC. I'm surprised that Rich or Lawrie hasn't already posted a response on how to install/use it. (I don't have that font installed at the moment so I can't give you any more details.)

It should also be possible to create that type of mark via a user object. There are a number of possible variations, that you'll see once you install the font. Since I've been dabbling with user objects, I should give this a try.

Mike

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #2 –
Isn't that usually indicated as "eighth/eighth" = tripleted "dotted eighth/sixteenth"? I.e. 2 notes = 2 notes?

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #3 –
Thank you fathafluff.
The reason why i asked for the name is because I wanted to google for it, but I didn't find any useful hits. 
So I hoped to get better results if I knew the correct official or unofficial name.

Mike.
I first also thought on font sets, but in the past I downloaded some files from the scriptorium - and not having installed the right font - they looked awful, This reduces their potential "reachability" and that's why I find the font set solution only a good "second choice".

I saw your user object for slurs - very impressive and most of all very useful - and because I spended (much) time in reverse engineering your script, I was wondering if rhythm indications could also be created as user objects.  I found a slur object defined in the API, but I wasn't sure if these kind of "custom objects" would be available (or composable). Thank you for indicating that user objects could be possible. I will further investigate the possibilities.

Bart


Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #4 –
Hi Bart,
Quote from: Bart –
Mike.
I first also thought on font sets, but in the past I downloaded some files from the scriptorium - and not having installed the right font - they looked awful, This reduces their "reachability" and that's why I find the font set solution a less optimal solution.
I understand what you are saying, and agree in principal; however, the individuals who created those fonts made a useful contribution, since at the time it was the only way to allow those symbols to be added to a score.
Quote from: Bart –
I saw your user object for slurs - very impressive and most of all very useful - and because I spended (so much) time in reverse engineering your script, I was wondering if rhythm indications could also be created as user objects. I found a slur object defined in the API, but I wasn't sure if these kind of "custom objects" would be available (or composable).
Thank you for the kind words about the slur object. If you have looked at the API, you'll see that an object can be created that draws lines, shapes and text on the staff. The "text" includes note shapes from NWC's system font, so it would not be that difficult to create an object that creates the rhythm indication you found. However, I've had another idea for creating what you asked for, that you can see in the following clip:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.749739,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,NoLegerLines,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Grace|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,NoLegerLines,Muted
|Text|Text:" = "|Font:PageSmallText|Pos:7.5|Wide:Y|Justify:Center
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=First,Grace|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First,NoLegerLines,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet,Grace|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam,NoLegerLines,Muted
|Note|Dur:8th,Triplet=End,Grace|Pos:7|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End,NoLegerLines,Muted
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
As you probably have guessed, they are just muted grace notes with no ledger lines. If you were going to use this approach, you would probably want to put them on a separate "ornament" staff, surrounded by invisible rests of the desired duration.

That doesn't mean I am giving up on the notion of a user object approach, but I thought it was worth showing there is more than one way to skin this particular cat.

Mike
[Edit: Before anyone says it; yes, I agree that the notes are a little on the large side.]

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #5 –
AFAIK, there is no name for that object. It's usually just described as "three in the time of two" (or the reverse, depending on which direction you're going).

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #6 –
Mike,

Your third option is the most general and so easy.
It is exactly what I was looking for.
With a hidden staff for the music and a muted staff for the visual presentation (as in attachment jazzified.nwc), both components can seamlessly combined.
Thank you so much.

Bart

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #7 –
Bart,
just received your submission for the Scriptorium.  Yes, you can indicate the rhythm with Lawrie's excellent fonts - but Mike's solution is just as valid and doesn't need additional fonts loaded.

Rich.
Rich.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Bart –
I have a music score with a rhythm indication on top which states that 2 eight notes should be sung/played as triplets (see Capture.png in attachment).
What is the correct name for this indicator?
Is there a way to add this indicator in NWC songs with the current 2.51 version?
Could the future user object facility be used to create these kind of objects?
Hi Bart,
I've never seen that indicator used with the tripleted quavers, it's usually a crotchet/quaver triplet - which is available in my font suites.

To install my suites, you can visit the scripto: http://nwc-scriptorium.org/sfontr.html
and get a run down on fonts, installation thereof and a link to the installer for my suites.

I have been honoured by the NWC community choosing to make my suites a de-facto standard for which I am very grateful.  If you choose to use them yourself that would be wonderful, but if you choose not to, I understand.

As for playing jazz/swing - it can be done the way you used, but I find it easier to create a "conductor" or "tempo" staff and place a series of tempo changes in it:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.749739,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:4/4
|Tempo|Base:Eighth Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:6.5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Quarter Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:-7
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Eighth Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:6.5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Quarter Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:-7
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Eighth Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:6.5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Quarter Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:-7
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Eighth Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:6.5
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Quarter Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:-7
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

This will give you a swing feel at 120 bpm without having to create a written AND a sounding staff.

See the attached file which is a version of your sample with a conductor staff.

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.
 

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #9 –
Re the name of this symbol, the underlying rhythm is called "shuffle" or (incorrectly, but most often used) "swing". So, looking for "symbol for shuffle rhythm" or the like might find some explanations ...

H.M.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #10 –
Hi, Lawry,

You are right, it was also for me the first time that I saw this strange indication. That's, in fact, why I posted this question. I believe that the maker of the original document (probably not made with noteworthy composer) could't find the proper presentation and customized something himself.

I am not really interested in getting an exact copy of what I have on paper, so I don't care if I have to use different presentation.
I want the NWC files to sound good and to be easy to understand - with minimal effort, if possible, that's all.

When I will prints a score myself, I would go for the best quality and that is definitely with your fonts (especially since I see how easy you made the installation process). [I even tried Lilypond, but I wasn't really excited about the result/effort balance.]

If I distribute the NWC file itself, I prefer one that looks good for everyone, also for people that didn't customize their pc.
[I first hoped to implement a jpg - or your font characters - in user objects to get rid of the need to make customizations]
But Mike's solution perfectly fits for what I tried to achieve this time.

I highly appreciate your suggestion for the conductor staff.
I was investigating the "nwsw_Unjazzify.php" script to convert it into a "Jazzify" script. But with your conductorstaff solution this is not necessary.
Less work and even a better alternative (because: easy, effective and no redundancy).

Many thanks.

Bart

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #11 –
Hey Bart,
you are most welcome mate.

If you want to distribute the font installer with any NWC you create files please feel free to do so.

I wish I could take credit for the conductor staff approach with the changeing metronome marks, but it was someone else's idea.  Sadly my memory has failed me and I don't recall who actually came up with it, though I do remember calling it "elegant" when I learned enough about it to understand how it worked.

Lawrie

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #12 –
There is one "caveat" (problem?) with the conductor staff: If you export a MIDI of such a Noteworthy score (with hundreds of tempo changes), the software reading down the line might not be really happy. Some sound fonts I use get problems with the "attack" parts of notes, which makes the notes more or less inaudible; and/or at least (the DAW) Reaper seems also to get lost with notes playing at such varying tempos.
The solution (with which I am completely happy) is to let Noteworthy play the score and send the MIDI to the DAW (e.g. via loopMIDI).

(It might very much be that I do not yet understand sound fonts enough, and so that behavior may well be "right" - still, for me, it was a problem ... the more so because the forums of Reaper and the like will tell you quite decidedly that you should use "their" note entry feature ... ahem).

H.M.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #13 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
There is one "caveat" (problem?) with the conductor staff: If you export a MIDI of such a Noteworthy score (with hundreds of tempo changes), the software reading down the line might not be really happy.
Something as simple as this adds 91 tempo messages:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.51,Single)
|Tempo|Tempo:120|Pos:11
|TempoVariance|Style:Ritardando|Pos:-7
|RestMultiBar|NumBars:8|PrintOnce:N|WhenHidden:ShowBars,ShowRests
|Tempo|Tempo:30|Pos:11
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #14 –
Rick,

Am I right if I think that you want to show an example where it can go wrong?

A similar procedure as the one explained for dynamics in Tina Billets "mpcguide" ### can be a workaround for this problem, can't it? Or am I raving out nonsense, now?

Bart

###non-working link removed, please follow Rick's link in Reply 15### 

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #15 –
Quote from: Bart –
Am I right if I think that you want to show an example where it can go wrong?
You are correct. Dynamic variances on Volume (but not on note velocity) can also generate hundreds of MIDI messages. As can Linear Sweep MPC's.
BTW, you cannot link directly to downloads from the Scriptorium. You can do something like: Click <here> and download the MPC Guide.
Registered user since 1996

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #16 –
The problem of those soundfonts and/or Reaper are probably not the zillions of MIDI message per se, but the concrete messages that line up perfectly with notes (I guess). In the ritartando example, usually a note is playing "over" a tempo change ...
... but all that's only guesswork. Also in my case, many notes played correctly - only a noticable amount (20% or so) had a strange loudness.
I just wanted to point out that that conductor's staff might produce problems in some cases, for which one needs then more "creative solutions" ...

H.M.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #17 –
Umm, H.M., I'm not sure the soundfonts have any relevance - they are used by the synth's audio engine in response to the MIDI commands received by the synth.  They are not directly MIDI related at all.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Umm, H.M., I'm not sure the soundfonts have any relevance ...
Yes, it's a somewhat weird claim, I know. When I have more time (not right now), I'll try to show in a demo project why I believe this (in a nutshell: When I modified the attack values in the sfz definitions, notes started to appear or disappear at some places, but not at others) - but maybe such a "controlled experiment" might also show that I'm wrong, and there is some other effect ...

H.M.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #19 –
H.M., Rick,

This discussion comes in an area where my knowledge is limited and your last remarks are - at least for me - not very clear anymore.

I understand that too much midi commands or too large soundfonts can badly influence the playback performance.
But how can I know what is too much/too large, or in other words: how can I see how much stress I put on the system with a chosen configuration?
And: Are there some rules of thumb that can be used to check the quality/badness of an option (to predict that some scores will give problems on systems that are x times slower)?

I tried to check with Midi-Ox the 91 tempo changes in your simple example (reply 13), Rick, but I didn't detect the bad behavior.

Bart

(Yes I am trying to steal your knowledge in this field)

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #20 –
Mea culpa, as they say: I lead this thread on an off-topic track with that talk about sound fonts and the like - do not worry about that! It might maybe become a problem - but on the other hand, everything may work just fine (as it did for me for many pieces I wrote)!
Just use whatever Noteworthy gives you to write your music.

(I will write a concrete text about the possible problems and my solutions "somewhen" - maybe in July -, then you can check whether this is of any interest at all for you ...).

H.M.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: hmmueller –
Re the name of this symbol, the underlying rhythm is called "shuffle" or (incorrectly, but most often used) "swing". So, looking for "symbol for shuffle rhythm" or the like might find some explanations ...

Well.....

It's actually a much older rhythm than "shuffle" and "swing," which are jazz terms. The symbol in question (two in the time of three, or vice versa) can be found at least as early as the early Baroque (around 1600) and probably much earlier.  And it doesn't really indicate the swing or shuffle tempo, which is a dotted rhythm played in the style of triplets. As written in this thread, it indicates a change from a 2/4 or 4/4 rhythm to a 6/8 rhythm, where the the three eighth notes of each of the two groups in 6/8 are played in the same time as two eighth notes in 2/4 or 4/4. In other words, the beat stays the same, but it is divided in three instead of two (or vice versa).

I know. Picky, picky.... But it's important to keep this stuff straight, so we're all talking about the same thing.

The symbol for a swing or shuffle rhythm is written with a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth on the left side of the equal sign, rather than two eighth notes.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #22 –
"Well", too ... I think you are not right on all accounts, so let me spell out what I think I know - I happily stand corrected wherever I'm wrong:

1. What you are talking about, are the notes inégales - a very interesting topic indeed. However, notes inégales where never indicated by the composer with such a sign - they were a mode of playing that was known by some players to be used with certain pieces (see the Wikipedia article - even if its contents are not definitely true, it shows the historical questions and insecurities about them - similar to questions about many ornaments which also often were implied and not notated).

2. Besides that, notes notated as dotted-eighth+sixteenth have, for a long time, been used as a kind of "shorthand" for the 2/3+1/3 split of a triplet, as can be seen in pieces by Bach, Bach's sons and up at least to Beethoven. But this has nothing to do with notes inégales (or shuffle or swing), but is just a notation - as can be seen in many cases where another voice plays triplets in parallel.

3. The symbol for shuffle/"swing" actually is two eights equalled to a triplet of a quarter+eighth ("crotchet"+"quaver"), because in jazz scores, eighths are used throughout (a dotted eighth+a sixteenth note, if it occurs at all, means an "especially sharply dotted rhythm").

4. The symbol you describe, with "a dotted eighth followed by a sixteenth on the left side of the equal sign," I have never seen in any jazz or other score. It might be used in piano sheet music for beginners to indicate the shorthand I've indicated in item 2. above - but composers of that time would not (need to) indicate that with a special symbol.

If we disagree on this, we would probably have to start citing examples - I'll try to find a few in my heaps of piano and other scores that confirm or disprove what I said ...


Edit: For the fun of it, here are links to twelve scans from (only) two books of choir arrangements (one German, there is a piano acc. book and the choir book; and one American) - just click on the links and have fun with the inconsistencies and also how some of the scans disagree with my items:


Edit one day later: I think I have to modify my claim 3 above: The shuffle/swing notation using pairs of eighths seems to be a more "recent" (60s or later) development. At least the "classical jazz composers", starting with Jelly Roll Morton, then Gershwin, Cole Porter etc. used the dotted eighth+sixteenth notation to indicate "swing" - I know that I have Morton and Gershwin scores somewhere notated like that. Still, I cannot remember having seen any sign that would inform the reader that this rhythm is to be played more "triplet-like" - I think it was "obvious"/"implied" like the notes inégales a few centuries earlier.

H.M.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #23 –
No, I wasn't talking about notes inégales. I was talking about two in the time of three (or three in the time of two). It was a common trick especially in keyboard music in the early baroque and has been used plenty of times since. Essentially it is a means of moving from duplets to triplets but without writing the triplet sign over and over. A (very) quick look through just one source in my collection of scores found this example: it's written as a dotted half note in the time of a half note, but it's the same idea. The music is by Girolamo Frescobaldi, from a set of variations on a 16th-century popular tune ("Partite sopra l'aria della Romanesca"), published in 1637. This is a modern transcription, from the Harvard Anthology of Music (1966). I will grant that Frescobaldi and others of that era probably did not write the symbol, which would have been understood. But all modern editions use it, and "modern" in this case goes back at least a hundred years.

Re: How do you call this rhythm indication in some music scores?

Reply #25 –
It gets more and more interesting.

The "dotted breve = breve" notation is, as far as I know, usually classified as a tempo indication, not a rhythm indication: It relates the tempo of a previous part to the tempo of the following part. But your interpretation as a "dropped triplet notation" makes also sense, at least in modern terms! Historically, however, I am quite sure it has nothing to do with "triplets", but with the "perfect" and "imperfect" underlying rhythm - odd or even "time signature" in modern parlance - stemming from at least the 13th century.
I reverse myself: It has more or less "everything" to do with triplets, i.e. with rhythm - you are totally right here: This notation is used only for music notated "alla breve", i.e. the breves=half notes are the beats. But there are two possibilities:
  • Each breve is divided into two semibreves (quarters) - our standard "alle breve" = 2/2 =approx. 4/4, but with a "half beat feel"; and we of course have this also in modern times, not only at and before Frescobaldi:  - e.g. Gershwin's "s'Wonderful" if sung straight
  • Each breve is divided into three parts - e.g. "s'Wonderful" with swing!
This still correlates with the almost 1000 year old "perfect" (ternary - swung) vs. "imperfect" (binary - straight) reading of notation - but it certainly derives from two different base rhythms, not tempos. I learned something.

(Re notation - see e.g. the entry for "mensural notation" in the Wikipedia where it says:
Quote
Whether a note was to be read as ternary ("perfect") or binary ("imperfect") was a matter partly of context rules and partly of a system of mensuration signs comparable to modern time signatures.)

(Clarification:) And from this it follows that this sign has not been necessary as long as a breve was a breve, whether is was binary or ternary. Only when we changed the meaning (around 1600, I think) that a breve always contains two semi(!)breves, we had to notate ternary rhythm with dotted breves. But now, we needed a separate convention and, eventually, symbol to explain that the dotted breve actually was an "old undotted one", only split into three parts.

Here is another example of that sign, from one of the earliest German songs as notated in our contemporary hymn book:
<Image Link>
The interesting thing here is that, in contrast to the Frescobaldi example, the change of the "meter" happens in full flight, not between to clearly separate parts.
Incidentally, many modern scores of this song notate it (wrongly) in 6/4 and 4/4 and then moreover drop that sign, thereby leading choirs and conductors to keep the quarter beat the same throughout - which is absolutely wrong!

Re the tip hiding the "3"s in triplets, a famous example of a score that jumps between tripletted and normal eighths is the end of Buxtehude's Passacaglia in D minor. The last page of this score shows this - only a few of the triplets have a "3", the rest is obvious to the reader (from the fact that either 9 or 12 eighths are contained in a measure).

H.M.