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Topic: New Strange Sound Issue (Read 8855 times) previous topic - next topic

New Strange Sound Issue

Hi

I was happily working on a score that contains three staves but when I played it back, about half way through, one staff stopped playing audibly but I can hear it trying to sound the notes. When I removed all the other staves, it played normally. I need them all to play together as I'm trying to export the midi. When I try to export, the midi file behaves the same way.



I am perplexed! What should I be checking?

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #1 –
I think you have overlapping MIDI channels: You should, in general, have a separate (distinct) MIDI channel for each staff; it seems that one staff e.g. contains a p (piano) which almost mutes the other staff because both are on the same channel.
(The exception to the rule is typically a piano, which can have the same channel for left and right hand - but even there, two channels are often helpful, so that you can e.g. have the accompaniment a little more quiet than the melody).

H.M.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #2 –
My midi channels are not overlapping.

Any other ideas?

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #3 –
If you can share the score with us, I'm sure we can figure out what is going on. But I understand it might not be something you want to share publicly.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #4 –
If there's enough going on in the 3 staves you have, you could be running into a synth limitation...  There is always a limited amount of polyphony any synth can handle and some are better than others - some also have the ability to have their polyphony setting adjusted.

What synth are you using?
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #5 –
At or near that point where that one staff stops playing, are there (a) dynamics (p, pp, ...), (b) dynamic changes (cresc, ...) or (c) MPCs around (on any staff)?
If yes: If you remove these one by one, when does it play correctly?
If no: ... mhm ...

And: Are there definitely no other staves? (I often have "work staves" for copying things around, which sometimes disturb playing with some copied item)

H.M.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
If there's enough going on in the 3 staves you have, you could be running into a synth limitation...  There is always a limited amount of polyphony any synth can handle and some are better than others - some also have the ability to have their polyphony setting adjusted.

What synth are you using?

Where would I look for that information?

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #7 –
Sometimes one instrument will mask another, if the timbres are similar. If you hear it "trying to sound," you may be hearing the attack, but the sustained sound beyond the attack may be blending in with something else. What instruments are involved, and what notes are playing in each instrument when the sound disappears?

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #8 –
Quote from: SEBC –
Where would I look for that information?

Go to "Options" -> tab "Midi" and tell us what you have under "Devices used by play back".
And if you use a virtual MIDI cable (you would know that you do - like MIDIyoke or loopMIDI), what is connected to it on the receiving side?

... and another question: What happens if you start playing a little bit (say a measure or two) after the position where the staff "vanishes"? Is the sound then ok (this would indicate that Lawrie's suspicion is correct)? Or is it also almost unhearable then (that would indiciate that it is not a synth problem, but a problem in the score?

H.M.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #9 –
I am using everyone's favourite:
Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth

It's actually only in the available playback box but I suppose since there is only one, then it gets used by default.

If I stop and start later, I do hear what previously didn't play, but then a new section stops playing until there is only one or two notes.

This is my new computer and I didn't have issues with the last one like this.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #10 –
Bill, the instrumentation is voice, piano and oboe, so there shouldn't be an issue with timbre masking.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #11 –
Quote from: SEBC –
instrumentation is voice, piano and oboe
I would suggest making the "singer" MIDI channel 1, the oboe  MIDI channel 2, and the piano a higher MIDI channel.

In the event of voice overload, synths are supposed to drop voices from the higher channels first.

I would also remove any sustain pedal down items. While the pedal is down, voices are not released. They can add up rather quickly. If this solves the issue, you can judiciously add the 'pedal downs' back in where needed.
Registered user since 1996

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
I would suggest making the "singer" MIDI channel 1, the oboe  MIDI channel 2, and the piano a higher MIDI channel.

In the event of voice overload, synths are supposed to drop voices from the higher channels first.

I would also remove any sustain pedal down items. While the pedal is down, voices are not released. They can add up rather quickly. If this solves the issue, you can judiciously add the 'pedal downs' back in where needed.


By George, that’s it! I had put the pedal down in the piano staves to try and give more legato.

Thanks!

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #13 –
Quote from: SEBC –
I am using everyone's favourite:
Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth

Do yourself a favour and install a softsynth or a VST host that uses soundfonts - there's info on the Scripto: http://nwc-scriptorium.org that will help.  Check out the helpful files section.  That m$ softsynth is a sound set licenced from Roland in the days of Windows 3 (IIRC, may have been 2!!!) and while acceptable then has just become a steaming pile of &^$#% in comparison to other synths for years now.

Even my venerable Yamaha S-YXG50 (which I'll finally have to relinquish soon as I've been dragged kicking and screaming away from my XP system) is a significant improvement.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #14 –
I'm pretty busy with composing and performing, but I would like to have some idea of the quality differences that you're talking about. Can someone send me an example of a better synth sound? I guess I have gotten used to what I have now and haven't thought about upgrading.

Thanks,

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #15 –
The current version of the NWC Viewer supports soundfonts, and the excellent FluidR3 soundfont is available from this forum post. It takes a little work to decompress and install it the soundfont, but if you do that, you can play your own files with the Viewer and get a sense of how much better they sound. Another alternative - which avoids some of the work involved - is to export one of your files as a MIDI and then go to SolMiRe (solmire.com), upload the file, choose FluidR3 from the list of soundfonts the site gives you, and tell the site to convert it to an MP3. It's a very simple, clear process. The site keeps metadata from the file you upload (NOT the file itself) for statistical reasons, but you can opt out of that if you prefer.

HTH

Bill

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #16 –
Thanks, Bill. I’m off to a rehearsal now but will have a look later. I have a feeling I’m going to be quite sad to hear the difference!

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #17 –
One option that I use is playback via MIDI through my Yamaha P-250 digital stage piano, which has a full General MIDI and XG sound set. It sounds especially nice for piano parts. Of course I realize that not everyone owns a MIDI instrument, or has it connected to their computer. (The keyboard I have is actually connected via USB, and MIDI is "emulated" via a driver, so no physical MIDI interface is needed.)

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #18 –
I am trying out the FluidR3 soundfont through the website. Is this the best choice for a choral sound? There are a number of other choices there and I am unfamiliar with them all. I have a SATB a capella piece I am finishing up.

Thanks.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #19 –
I have been using the website that was suggested for mp3 conversion.

When I searched for some information on the tune that I used, I found this file (which is about my midi that I converted). Should I be concerned at all that this is on the internet? I may have forgotten to uncheck the box saying that the info could be kept in the database.

https://solmire.com/midi-info/1520256/a-shelter-in-the-time-of-storm-piano-clarinet2-mid.html

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #20 –
Quote from: SEBC –
I have been using the website that was suggested for mp3 conversion.

When I searched for some information on the tune that I used, I found this file (which is about my midi that I converted). Should I be concerned at all that this is on the internet? I may have forgotten to uncheck the box saying that the info could be kept in the database.

https://solmire.com/midi-info/1520256/a-shelter-in-the-time-of-storm-piano-clarinet2-mid.html
The disclaimer at the top of the page says that neither your MIDI file nor the resulting mp3 file are online, and can't be downloaded by anyone. It also says that you can request that the information page be removed.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #21 –
Hi Mike
True enough. That’s what it says. But I’m paranoid. Can someone hack into it and steal my work?  😳

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #22 –
Actually, I should revise my comment: the disclaimer doesn't say that your files are not online, it just says that no one else can download them. If you login with your own credentials, I assume you are able to download the generated mp3 until it's purged by the system (or, perhaps as you imply, the files aren't actually purged but are in a backup folder somewhere).

I guess that if someone is concerned about their files being accessed by others, then they shouldn't upload them to services like this.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #23 –
Quote from: SEBC –
I am trying out the FluidR3 soundfont through the [SolMiRe] website. Is this the best choice for a choral sound?
If you are asking about the website's possibilities, then I do not know - you'd have to try all the soundfonts yourself and select the best.

In general, however, all soundfonts are certainly "very medium", at best. In the attachment, there is a small score: A cadenza and then the same melody sung by women, and then by men. Of course, the women would be altos and the men tenors. The two zip files contain MP3s of the respective renderings - once via SolMiRe's Fluid R3 soundfont, and then using the Olympus Micro Choir which I have locally installed. For me, it is obvious which I prefer; one of the problems of General MIDI sound fonts is clearly that GM does not distinguish between female and male voices, so a soundfont renderer has to make an arbitrary split (typically somewhere around E).

H.M.

// Edit: Corr reference to GM sound fonts.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #24 –
Quote from: SEBC –
I am trying out the FluidR3 soundfont through the website. Is this the best choice for a choral sound? There are a number of other choices there and I am unfamiliar with them all. I have a SATB a capella piece I am finishing up.
Ahh yes, I failed to alert you to the "Soundfont"-go-round...
One of the downsides of using soundfonts is the seemingly never ending search for something better.  I really like the Yamaha S-YXG50 sounds - they're not perfect, but do seem to be a reasonably good balance - at least to my ear.  I regret losing them in my exit from XP, though I believe there is a soundfont of them somewhere - just have to find it.

Many of the modern softsynth applications, especially VST and DX systems, allow you to mix'n'match a fair bit by using sounds from different sources.  I don't bother going to this kind of effort as my final product is the printed score, not the audio file.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #25 –
There is a sample page on the website for converting the midi files to MP3 that plays the different sound fonts in various styles but none show the choral sound, which is what I am primarily interested in. I’ve been experimenting and “unison” isn’t too bad.

Re: New Strange Sound Issue

Reply #26 –
I have used this for converting CDA and midi files to mp3 cda-mp3. Havn't experimented with sound fonts.
Since 1998