Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver 2014-07-11 11:01 am A lot of the chats in the forum are about printing the music - about the visual look of the printed score - so I thought you'd all be amused by engraver Jeffrey Grossman's Website at http://www.jeffreygrossman.com/engraving.html Perhaps Rick, or maybe Richard, could waste a few hours experimenting with Noteworthy to see if it can match the SCORE version of the example with the dotted sixteenth-notes half-way down the page. [:-)] MusicJohn, 11/Jul/14 Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #1 – 2014-07-11 01:38 pm Well I would - except that I don't really understand what is going on.It seems the first bar is in 6/4 and then without a time sig change, the second is in 4/4. The third appears to be 13/8 except that the dotted sixteenth and the whole note must be perhaps rest chords (?) whilst the last bar again appears to be 13/8. On top of which Noteworthy does not easily deal with pentuplets without considerable workarounds and the seven ties would look bad I think since there are two notes in the chord that are too close in pitch and Noteworthy does have visual display problems in this area. That's before even giving the slurs any consideration.So, not this time for me - more of a "Rick" Challenge I think using perhaps some of his digital whiteout tricks.Edit - see further post Quote Selected Last Edit: 2014-07-13 09:35 am by Richard Woodroffe
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #2 – 2014-07-11 02:20 pm Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2014-07-11 01:38 pmmore of a "Rick" Challenge I think using perhaps some of his digital whiteout tricks.No digital whiteout needed, but you summarize the challenges well. An attachment is forthcoming ... Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #3 – 2014-07-12 02:11 am Here's my shot, I don't know how close it is. Quote Selected Last Edit: 2014-07-12 02:25 am by Warren Porter
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #4 – 2014-07-13 09:34 am Well, after saying I wouldn't - I changed my mind! Here's my attempt. Since Rick said QuoteNo digital whiteout needed, I thought I would have a go.The difficulty here is trying to work out what should be there as opposed to what appears to be there.Since the original was all about the way two different notation programs displayed a piece of music that someone has put in (Jeffrey Grossman ?) I guess the trick is to see how Noteworthy can cope. So make the music the same (even if it is wrong) but make it look OK.Warren has what looks like the whole note as part of a chord with the first of the pentuplets. I can't see that this is the case on either of the images and so my version does not show that. I decided that in this instance, the two slurs are quite reasonable and so I haven't tried to alter them.I have, however altered the ties with the close pitched notes. Since I already had a layer, I used this to change the clashing ties so that they don't clash.Not much more to say about it really. Anyone know where it's from ? I would like to know what is supposed to be there. Quote Selected Last Edit: 2014-07-13 10:40 am by Richard Woodroffe
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #5 – 2014-07-13 04:17 pm Talking of master engravers, has anyone else seen these Henle videos?:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5uPPJj_M_ohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=345o3Wu95QoQuite amazing. Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #6 – 2014-07-14 12:35 am Yes, quite amazing - I love watching skilled craftsmen... but I prefer typesetting music the way I do - that looks like way too much work Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #7 – 2014-07-14 09:48 am Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2014-07-13 09:34 amI guess the trick is to see how Noteworthy can cope. So make the music the same (even if it is wrong) but make it look OK.I agree. And there is much that is wrong.Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2014-07-13 09:34 amWarren has what looks like the whole note as part of a chord with the first of the pentuplets. I can't see that this is the case on either of the images and so my version does not show that.Again I agree. I have my own approach to pentuplets that doesn't alter the tempo. 'Note Off' suffers, but the damper pedal masks it.Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2014-07-13 09:34 amI decided that in this instance, the two slurs are quite reasonable and so I haven't tried to alter them.Reasonable, but not quite right. The first slur crosses a bar line and needs some help if the system would break there. My version compensates for that. The second slur is supposed to end before the stem.Quote from: Richard Woodroffe – 2014-07-13 09:34 amI have, however altered the ties with the close pitched notes.Oddly, the ties don't bother me. Even sight reading it, it is obvious that every note has a tie. That is all I need to know.Quote from: http://www.jeffreygrossman.com/engraving.htmlThere are still some mistakes in these examples, like missing courtesy accidentals ... but they were in the original, so I basically left them in.He is not kidding. This took an hour to sort out. NWC needed some serious manipulation to play the right notes without any 'Unassigned Accidentals.' Not only are there 'missing courtesy accidentals,' there are quite of few accidentals that should be hidden.One thing I liked about the Sibelius version is the size (but not the placement) of the pedal marks. IMO, like SCORE, Noteworthy's are too small.Quote from: http://www.jeffreygrossman.com/engraving.htmlIs there any reason that the dotted sixteenth-notes in the upper line need to be so unevenly positioned? How about the quintuplet in m. 3Why indeed. NWC's Spacers make short work of it.I guess the next challenge is to present this as 'best notation,' rather than aping mistakes. IMO, some of these beams should slope. The feel is of ascending and descending passages and the beams should reflect that. Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #8 – 2014-08-23 02:47 pm After all your efforts to provide a Noteworthy version of the few bars Jeffrey Grossman refers to, I thought I'd ask the man himself for his comments. This, then, is what I wrote to him, and there follows his reply. I guess it rests there. MusicJohn, 23/Aug/14===========================================On Jul 16, 2014, at 8:51 AM, John wrote:Hi, Jeffrey.As a Choral singer I'm really only interested in what music sounds like, and then only in a general sense, and only incidentally do I care what it looks like. For my purpose, then, the relatively "simple" Notation Processor Noteworthy Composer -http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/- is more than adequate.However, my fellow NWC users tend to be more keen on good-looking printouts, and the Noteworthy Forum is full of discussions about getting slurs right, beaming across barlines, and the exact placing of text objects, and so on and so on. So, having quite by chance come across your Website pagehttp://www.jeffreygrossman.com/engraving.htmlI thought I would set my friends as a challenge the example you give comparing SCORE with Sibelius. What, I asked, can they do with Noteworthy?The gauntlet has been taken up - see the Forum athttps://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=8818.0;prev_next=next#new- and there have been provided several "solutions" to printing the few bars you refer to, and I thought you might be interested to see what can be done with a $50 piece of software plus a lot of time! None of us, I'm sure, would dream of suggesting that NWC is better than, or even as good as, SCORE, but ... with a bit of time and care it can provide quite nice printed output.Regards,John (MusicJohn), 14/Jul/14PS You will be able to see the proposed NWC Files, and observe all the "tricks" done to get things to look right, using the free Noteworthy Viewer fromhttp://www.noteworthysoftware.com/nwc2/viewer.htmhttp://www.learnchoralmusic.co.uk============================================ Hi John, Thanks for this message — very interesting to see the ensuing discussion, and glad (I suppose) that my little website would spur it on! As you might imagine, I haven’t updated that in a long time, or I would probably include a few examples like the attached… All the best!Jeffhttp://www.learnchoralmusic.co.uk/NWC%20postings/PastedGraphic-1.pnghttp://www.learnchoralmusic.co.uk/NWC%20postings/PastedGraphic-2.png Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #9 – 2014-08-24 03:02 pm Just for fun, I did the same music in LilyPond. Took well under and hour, and the only "tweak" I used was to get rid of Time Signatures. Quote Selected
Re: Jeffrey Grossman, Master Engraver Reply #10 – 2014-08-24 04:51 pm Quote from: PhilHolmes – 2014-08-24 03:02 pmJust for fun, I did the same music in LilyPond. It appears to have all the flaws that Grossman complains of ... and more. Quote Selected
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