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Topic: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd? (Read 5055 times) previous topic - next topic

In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Dear NWC Forum,

I have a song i am helping my choir with. In a repeated section, the publisher made a note saying, first time through Sop. & Alto sing, 2nd time through, T & B. Here is the form of the staves:

S: <begin><MasterRtpOpen>S<1stOnly>S<AllVoicesSingCommonHere><MasterRtpClose><MoreSong>
A: <begin><MasterRepOpen>A<1stOnly>A<AllVoicesSingCommonHere><MasterRtpClose><MoreSong>
T: <begin><MasterRepOpen>T<2ndOnly>T<AllVoicesSingCommonHere><MasterRtpClose><MoreSong>
B: <begin><MasterRptOpen>B<2ndOnly>B<AllVoicesSingCommonHere><MasterRtpClose><MoreSong>

I have made many attempts using special endings. No luck.

I'd like to keep the publisher's measure numbers intact so my choir can tell me if I made any mistakes.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks for the help in advance.

Love and peace,

Joe
 
Love and peace,
Joe

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #1
Hi Joe,

There are several ways you can achieve your aim, but I find the simplest way is:
1.     In the staves which are silent first time place a "ppp" immediately before the <Repeat Open> barlines, then place an appropriate dynamic (eg mf) immediately before the <Repeat Close> barline at the end of the passage.
2.     In the staves which are sounded the first time, place an appropriate dynamic before the <Repeat Open> barline, and a"ppp" immediately before the <Repeat Close> barline.

I usually make the ppp signs invisible.  The attachment shows the idea.

Good luck,

Bill.

  • Haymo
  • Virtuoso
Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #2
Bill Denholm's solution below is FAR more elegant!

If the choir is only going to use printed copies (and no form of playback themselves),

I would use hidden, sounding staves, fully written out, where muting and/or playing is set as required
and muted staves for printing and display.

This will make a mess of the bar numbers in the  hidden, sounding staves,
where one would have to manually repeat the original bar numbers.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #3
You can use the volume or (better) the expression MPC instead of the "ppp" and "mf" (or whatever).
In that case the output level can be really 0.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #4
You are quite correct of course Flurmy, the mpc is one of the alternatives I hinted at.  I have found the ppp solution to be very simple and obvious, and requiring less technical skill.  The sound of the 'softened' staves at ppp level is swamped by the 'sounding' ones.

In my experience mpcs must usually be cancelled or they can cause strange behaviour on subsequent replays.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #5
Dear Bill,  Flurmy and Haymo,

Thanks for the responses.

Bill, thanks for the solution. I would have never come to that myself.

Flurmy, I have seen the MPC used in John Hooper's work on the NWC Scriptorium. I also have seen it be recommended by folks I trust on this Forum. Thanks for the suggestion.

Haymo, thanks for the non-audio solution. My goal, however, is to produce practice audios for each part. You can see the ones i have done at this link: http://tinyurl.com/epiphany-all-anthems

Thanks again, to all of you.

Love and peace,

Joe

Love and peace,
Joe

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #6
Quote
they can cause strange behaviour on subsequent replays.

Bill, usually this is the effect of how NWC parses the commands.
It does a back search of many things, including MPCs, before replays.
If it doesn't find anything of a kind, that kind of parameter is unchanged.
I met this effect many times, in particular with the pitch bend. :-|

To have a consistent behaviour simply put a parameter reset at the very beginning of the score.
For example, if you use the expression MPC in a staff (well: a channel, to be precise) then put an expression MPC with the absolute value 127.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #7
In my experience mpcs must usually be cancelled or they can cause strange behaviour on subsequent replays.
Bill, usually this is the effect of how NWC parses the commands.
It does a back search of many things, including MPCs, before replays.
If it doesn't find anything of a kind, that kind of parameter is unchanged.
I met this effect many times, in particular with the pitch bend. :-|
Perhaps you folks could post some examples. If I were new to this forum and considering purchase, I would be discouraged by your comments. In actual use, I do not find replay a problem. If there is a problen, it stands little chance of being fixed without examples.
Registered user since 1996

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #8
Quote
I would be discouraged by your comments.

Really? Not my intent at all.

Quote
In actual use, I do not find replay a problem.

Probably you use the pitch bend very rarely or either you rarely stop and restart a pitch bended tune.

Anyway, the problem is not so terrible once you know how to completely solve it: put a parameter reset at the very beginning of the score. (Explication and trick suggested by Eric.)

An example? There are some in the Scripto, from me and from others, but I'd like to suggest this one:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=7876.msg54814#msg54814
Please note that the erhu score has
Quote
|MPC|Controller:pitch|Style:Absolute|TimeRes:Eighth|SweepRes:128|Pt1:0,8192|Pos:8|Wide:Y
at the beginning exactly to allow for a stop and restart.

By the way: the other problem, the one in the topic of that thread, probably a rounding one, is still present.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #9
I made a few changes to Bill's file.
1. The mf's in the Soprano and Alto parts before the repeat open are not necessary. Sop and Alto will already play at the default dynamic the first time through.
2. For the 4 ppp's, I added a Property: Custom Note Velocity set to 0 1. (The default was 10, very soft. Zero 1 essentially mutes it completely.)
3. I added notes after the Soprano and Alto repeat closes to show...
4. A dynamic is needed after the Sop and Alto repeat close to restore the sound for the notes which follow.

(Edit) Thanks, Rick, for the link. I agree with the thread that zero should be zero. I guess I should have listened before attaching. I also left 3 staves muted from testing. Hopefully correct now.
  • Last Edit: 2014-03-25 03:34 am by fathafluff

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #10
I added a Property: Custom Note Velocity set to 0. (The default was 10, very soft. Zero mutes it completely.)
Nope. See: Note Velocity Anomalies (as of Beta 2.21) To effectively mute, use 'Custom Note Velocity:1'
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|PerformanceStyle|Style:Tenuto
|Instrument|Name:"Recorder"|Patch:74
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Dynamic|Style:p|Opts:Velocity=0
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
|Dynamic|Style:p|Opts:Velocity=1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #11
An example? There are some in the Scripto, from me and from others, but I'd like to suggest this one:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=7876.msg54814#msg54814
Please note that the erhu score has  at the beginning exactly to allow for a stop and restart.
I downloaded it, removed the opening MPC, stopped and restarted it several times. I heard no problems.
Registered user since 1996

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #12
I have made many attempts using special endings. No luck.
You probably didn't try this many special endings :)
  • Last Edit: 2014-03-25 11:41 am by Rick G.
Registered user since 1996

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #13
Quote
I downloaded it, removed the opening MPC, stopped and restarted it several times. I heard no problems.

Rick, you're right!
Perhaps something has changed in NWC since I started to use the trick.
I tried to find the relevant topic here in the forum but with no result.

After a bit of head scratching I have the doubt that the problem first appeared with volume because of a fade out. Anyway, I just checked and now even in that case there's no need for the trick.

I'm almost sure to remember that long ago Eric explained how NWC work(ed) and how to overcome the problem.
That is: that trick is not my invention.

But maybe I dreamed! :-)


"Dreaming permits each and every one of us to be quietly and safely insane every night of our lives."
         William Dement

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #14
Many many thanks to all replying. I am being educated BIG TIME.

I have some follow up questions.

Flurmy said, "To have a consistent behaviour simply put a parameter reset at the very beginning of the score." How do i do that? :)

Bill Denholm said, "In my experience mpcs must usually be cancelled or they can cause strange behaviour on subsequent replays." How do i do that? :)

Rick G., I looked at your "many special endings :)" example. I like it in that it doesn't use Dynamics. I manipulate Dynamics to emphasize parts in the practice audios I produce. I'll use this in the future providing i can GROK it. :)

This time I used Bill's ppp fff solution.

Thanks again to all.

Love and peace,

Joe

  • Last Edit: 2014-03-26 04:00 am by jdorocak
Love and peace,
Joe

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #15
Joe,
with parameter reset I mean an MPC that sets the controller immediately at the absolute (no sweep) value it has by default.
(Expression = 127, Pitch bend = 64 etc.)
Nothing really exotic. :-)

By the way: I suggest using the "expression" MPC for dynamics effects (like, for example, fade-in or fade-out) so as to leave the "volume" for the global mixing level, but that's just my choice.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #16
Thanks, Flurmy.

Quote
using the "expression" MPC for dynamics effects ...

I found the "expression" MPC in the MPC dialog, however i could NOT find any info on it in the HELP.

It seems like it does control volume. Does it indeed do that? Is it just a rename of the "Volume" MPC with equivalent function?

Thanks for the education, Flurmy.

Love and peace,

Joe
Love and peace,
Joe

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #17
Let's put it that way: imagine volume and expression like two volume knobs in cascade.

You can use whatever you prefer to adjust the voume but, of course, the "natural" knob to use is the one labeled "volume".
If you want to rise or lower a whole channel volume you simply move that "knob".

The one labeled "expression" is usually at max except, for example, when you need to add expression to a long, steady note.
In this case you can't use the usual dynamics ("f", "ff", "p" etc.) nor the dynamic variance ("crescendo" etc.).

Sure, you can change the volume, but suppose you set up a lot of complicate "expression" then you decide to make the whole part (instrument) softer or louder... You need to manually adjust each MPC command; very boring.

Possibly you can automate this task with the use of a special user tool, but the simplest way is to use the "expression" controller for the volume variations and leaving the volume for the use as "master mixer slider".

That's what I think is the most natural way to use them but, of course, you're not forced to use them that way.

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #18
Dear Flurmy,

Thanks for the explanation.
Quote
imagine volume and expression like two volume knobs in cascade.
Clear and concise.

Thanks again, Flurmy.

Love and peace,

Joe
Love and peace,
Joe

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #19
Rick G., I looked at your "many special endings :)" example. I'll use this in the future providing i can GROK it.
The attachment may be easier to grok.

You want parts to audibly "lay out" during certain passes. Therefore, you need to create a place for them to be when they are laying out. The attachment uses:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.51,Single)
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatOpen|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Whole|Visibility:Never
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:3|XBarCnt:Y|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
as a place to lay out for 3 measures. Adjust the "Repeat:3" according to your needs.

From there, it is a simple matter of placing Special Endings where you want each part to play. The attachment is at odds with many of NWC's supposed rules about Special Endings and Master Repeats. I suspect that most of these rules are obsolete.

You can use Multi-measure Rests instead of Local Repeats, but since MMR's lack an XBarCnt property, measure numbers may not be what you want.
  • Last Edit: 2014-03-29 10:13 am by Rick G.
Registered user since 1996

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #20
Dear Rick,

Thanks for the explanation. The clip's "Visibility:Never" properties make sense. I tried and abandoned MMRs because of the space they took up.

Thanks again, Rick.

And thanks to all the NWC Forum folks. It's a GREAT place to learn about NWC.

Love and peace,

Joe
Love and peace,
Joe

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #21
I tried and abandoned MMRs because of the space they took up.
I'd like to keep the publisher's measure numbers
MMR's will alter "the publisher's measure numbers". Use Local Repeats instead.
Registered user since 1996

Re: In a repeated section, how can I make Sop. & Alto sound first time & T,B 2nd?
Reply #22
"alter the publisher's measure numbers..."

That's not good for me as you keenly observed.

Thanks for the information, Rick.

Love and peace,

Joe
Love and peace,
Joe