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Topic: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature (Read 12490 times) previous topic - next topic

2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

This song, "Kotoba-asobi Uta" requires a time signature of 2/4 + 3/8 of which each measure has both 2/4 & 3/8. I don't think i should type in 7/8 since it's not what was written in the piece. In each measure, it is divided into 2 using a dotted barline, and as normally, each measure is divided by a barline. I want to send a photo to clear things up, but it seems that I can't since I'm not a member.

So basically it looks like this:

2 + 3 ♪ ♫ ♪ <insert a vertical dotted line here> ♪ ♫   <insert barline here>
4    8

that's not the piece itself, but that is what it should look like... I guess. Any feedback will be helpful :)

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #1 –
Quote from: dominiqueortega –
This song, "Kotoboa-asobi Uta" requires a time signature of 2/4 + 3/8 of which each measure has both 2/4 & 3/8. I don't think i should type in 7/8 since it's not what was written in the piece. In each measure, it is divided into 2 using a dotted barline, and as normally, each measure is divided by a barline. I want to send a photo to clear things up, but it seems that I can't since I'm not a member.

So basically it looks like this:

2 + 3 ♪ ♫ ♪ <insert a vertical line here> ♪ ♫  <insert barline here>
4    8

that's not the piece itself, but that is what it should look like... I guess. Any feedback will be helpful :)
G'day Dominique,
After a short consideration I would approach this thus:
Use a visible 2/4 + 3/8 time sigs., invisible 7/8, use normal plus broken bar lines, use a tempo staff to manage the change in metronome marks that would likely be required to maintain tempo (asuming the beats remain constant), placed between local repeats with the repeat number set to handle all the full bars

Something like this:
Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|Locale|ACP:1252
|Editor|ActiveStaff:2|CaretIndex:1|CaretPos:9
|SongInfo|Title:""|Author:"<Name>"|Lyricist:""|Copyright1:"Copyright © 2012 <Name>"|Copyright2:"All Rights Reserved"
|PgSetup|StaffSize:16|Zoom:4|TitlePage:Y|JustifyVertically:Y|PrintSystemSepMark:N|ExtendLastSystem:N|DurationPadding:Y|PageNumbers:0|StaffLabels:None|BarNumbers:None|StartingBar:1
|Font|Style:StaffItalic|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:10|Bold:Y|Italic:Y|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:StaffBold|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:Y|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:StaffLyric|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:7|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:PageTitleText|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:24|Bold:Y|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:PageText|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:12|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:PageSmallText|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User1|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:16|Bold:Y|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User2|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User3|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User4|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User5|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User6|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|PgMargins|Left:1.27|Top:1.27|Right:1.27|Bottom:1.27|Mirror:N
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff"|Group:"Standard"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Section Close|Visible:Y|BoundaryTop:12|BoundaryBottom:12|Lines:5|Color:Default
|StaffProperties|Muted:N|Volume:127|StereoPan:64|Device:0|Channel:1
|StaffInstrument|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:2/4
|Text|Text:"+"|Font:User1|Pos:0|Wide:Y
|TimeSig|Signature:3/8
|TimeSig|Signature:7/8|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-6
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle
|Rest|Dur:4th,Dotted
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff-1"|Group:"Standard"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Section Close|Visible:Y|BoundaryTop:10|BoundaryBottom:10|Lines:5|Color:Default
|StaffProperties|Muted:N|Volume:127|StereoPan:64|Device:0|Channel:2
|StaffInstrument|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127
|TimeSig|Signature:7/8
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatOpen
|Tempo|Tempo:120|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Eighth|Tempo:120|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:3
!NoteWorthyComposer-End

There may be better methods, but this would likely cover your needs.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #2 –
These may help get you started. You will probably want to fiddle with stem lengths to get flatter beams. Noteworthy's defaults are not particularly useful, especially for music with lyrics.

Attachment #1 does not put dotted barlines with whole measure rests. By convention, whole measure rest appear horizontally centered in the visual space of a measure. That does not produce good results when combined with dotted barlines on the same visual staff.

If you must have the dotted barlines in empty measures, attachment #2 is a possibility. It adopts a convention that the whole measure rests appear one note width to the left of the dotted barline.
Registered user since 1996

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #3 –
Upon reflection, this attachment seems to be an easier approach.
Using Text for the some of the rests eliminates the need for a few layered staves. Simpler still would be to use standard flags on the 8th notes.
The topmost staff is needed to control SysBreaks in Print Preview. Without it, NWC might decide to break on one of the dotted barlines :(
Registered user since 1996

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #4 –
I agree with Lawrie (and Rick seems to, as well) about how to create the time signature and dotted bar lines to subdivide each bar.  That's all about making a score for printing.

Lawrie goes on to describe tempo changes for playback.  Usually a score like this has a note by the composer telling the conductor how to interpret the time.  You need to know what he intends.

Does the 8th note remain constant, giving an even meter throughout each bar?  I doubt it, otherwise there's no need a double time signature, just use 7/8 instead.  I suspect the use of 3/8 effectively creates a triplet 8th note figure in the last section of each bar, so in essence you've got is a three beat bar with the last beat being tripletized 8th notes.

I stand to be corrected, of course, because others will know much more than I do about notating time signatures.

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #5 –
Of course David, which means my example should have been more like this:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|Locale|ACP:1252
|Editor|ActiveStaff:2|CaretIndex:1|CaretPos:9
|SongInfo|Title:""|Author:"<Name>"|Lyricist:""|Copyright1:"Copyright © 2012 <Name>"|Copyright2:"All Rights Reserved"
|PgSetup|StaffSize:16|Zoom:4|TitlePage:Y|JustifyVertically:Y|PrintSystemSepMark:N|ExtendLastSystem:N|DurationPadding:Y|PageNumbers:0|StaffLabels:None|BarNumbers:None|StartingBar:1
|Font|Style:StaffItalic|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:10|Bold:Y|Italic:Y|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:StaffBold|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:Y|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:StaffLyric|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:7|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:PageTitleText|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:24|Bold:Y|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:PageText|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:12|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:PageSmallText|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User1|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:16|Bold:Y|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User2|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User3|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User4|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User5|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|Font|Style:User6|Typeface:"Times New Roman"|Size:8|Bold:N|Italic:N|CharSet:0
|PgMargins|Left:1.27|Top:1.27|Right:1.27|Bottom:1.27|Mirror:N
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff"|Group:"Standard"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Section Close|Visible:Y|BoundaryTop:12|BoundaryBottom:12|Lines:5|Color:Default
|StaffProperties|Muted:N|Volume:127|StereoPan:64|Device:0|Channel:1
|StaffInstrument|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Key|Signature:C|Tonic:C
|TimeSig|Signature:2/4
|Text|Text:"+"|Font:User1|Pos:0|Wide:Y
|TimeSig|Signature:3/8
|TimeSig|Signature:7/8|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-6|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-6
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle
|Rest|Dur:4th,Dotted
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff-1"|Group:"Standard"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Section Close|Visible:Y|BoundaryTop:10|BoundaryBottom:10|Lines:5|Color:Default
|StaffProperties|Muted:N|Volume:127|StereoPan:64|Device:0|Channel:2
|StaffInstrument|Trans:0|DynVel:10,30,45,60,75,92,108,127
|TimeSig|Signature:7/8
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatOpen
|Tempo|Tempo:120|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Tempo|Base:Quarter Dotted|Tempo:120|Pos:9
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Rest|Dur:8th
|Bar|Style:LocalRepeatClose|Repeat:3
!NoteWorthyComposer-End
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #6 –
I like your example, Lawrie.  You've captured precisely how I think the figure should be interpreted. 


 

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #7 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Does the 8th note remain constant, giving an even meter throughout each bar?  I doubt it, otherwise there's no need a double time signature, just use 7/8 instead.  I suspect the use of 3/8 effectively creates a triplet 8th note figure in the last section of each bar, so in essence you've got is a three beat bar with the last beat being tripletized 8th notes.

I don't think so. I think the 8th note would remain constant. The usual use of compound time signatures like this (at least, the use I'm most familiar with) is in ethnic music, such as the music of eastern Europe (Bartok used compound time sigs a lot) or, in the case we are looking at here, apparently Japanese. Other cultures don't think the same way we do about musical time. In eastern European folk music, and I'm guessing in Japanese folk music, the time units are designated "long" and "short". "Long" is roughly equivalent to three beats; "short" is roughly equivalent to two beats. 2/4 + 3/8, in that system, translates into two shorts and a long. For musicians steeped in the western tradition, it's best counted

       1-2-1-2-1-2-3 | 1-2-1-2-1-2-3 | ....

But that would be a compound time sig that looked something like 2/8 + 2/8 + 3/8, and those can quickly get unwieldy (the repeated patterns of shorts and longs can stretch over as many as 22 beats), so the 2/4 + 3/8 convention is a convenient shortcut. A folk musician in one of those traditions, of  course - not worried about notating the piece, just playing it - would simply count

      short - short - long | short - short - long | ...

and be done with it.

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #8 –
Thanks everyone! But I'm still a n00b with noteworthy, so I'm sorry to say that I'm still VERY new to this... Can anyone please explain step-by-step on how to do the time signature like this? Oh and thank you Rick G. :) your third file was exactly what I needed. Though, I've been tinkering with it for a while now, and yet I still don't get it. Thanks for everyone's feedbacks :)

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #9 –
Quote from: dominiqueortega –
Can anyone please explain step-by-step on how to do the time signature like this?
One cannot do "the time signature like this", since NoteWorthy does not support it. The best that can be done is to do something that NoteWorthy supports and then make it look as though you have done a  "time signature like this".

The time signature that NoteWorthy supports is 7/8. Step 1 is to notate the song in 7/8. Once that is done, hide the time signature and insert a representation of the unsupported time signature.

This representation can be built as TimeSig+Text+TimeSig or entirely from Text:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposer(2.5)
|PgSetup|StaffSize:18|Zoom:6|DurationPadding:N
|Font|Style:User1|Typeface:"Wingdings 2"|Size:9|CharSet:2
|AddStaff|Name:"Staff-1"
|StaffProperties|EndingBar:Open (hidden)
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|TimeSig|Signature:2/4
|Spacer|Width:0
|Text|Text:"Ë"|Font:User1|Pos:0|Wide:Y|Placement:BestFitForward
|TimeSig|Signature:3/8
|TimeSig|Signature:7/8|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle|XBarCnt:Y
|Rest|Dur:4th,Dotted
|Bar
|Spacer|Width:50
|Text|Text:"2"|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:0|Placement:BestFitForward
|Text|Text:"4"|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:-4|Wide:Y|Placement:BestFitForward
|Text|Text:"Ë"|Font:User1|Pos:0|Wide:Y|Placement:BestFitForward
|Text|Text:"3"|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:0|Placement:BestFitForward
|Text|Text:"8"|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:-4|Wide:Y|Placement:BestFitForward
|Spacer|Width:200
|Rest|Dur:Half
|Bar|Style:BrokenSingle|XBarCnt:Y
|Rest|Dur:4th,Dotted
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposer-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: 2/4 + 3/8 as a time signature

Reply #10 –
Thank you Rick G. :D I'm sorry for the late reply though. Thanks for all your help, guys, you really helped a lot :D