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Topic: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment (Read 10264 times) previous topic - next topic

Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

The default stems lenghts look very short in1/64 notes and in 1/32 beamed notes, and somewhat short short in 1/16 beamed notes  (Ex. 1 & 2) In the second bar of each example I have included an overriden lenght of beam as a default suggestion.
I believe that part of the problem is caused by the fact that the empty space between the beams is too wide. While in most editions it is more or less half the width of the beam, NWC the empty space betwen the beams has the same width of the beam. As a result the problem becomes more acute in the faster beamed groups.
Furthermore, when beamed notes are arranged in diagonal, like in a broken chord, the automatic rearrangement sometimes creates a strange looking result. When beamed downwards they look "crowded" while the same group beamed upwards looks quite ok. (Ex. 3).
It's a pity, because in general NWC graphics are clean and handsome.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Text|Text:"EX. 1"|Font:User4|Pos:16|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=7,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=7,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=7,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
|Text|Text:"EX. 2"|Font:User4|Pos:16|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=9,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=9,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Up,StemLength=9,Beam=End
|Bar|Style:SectionClose
|Text|Text:"Ex. 3"|Font:User4|Pos:16|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #1 –
And another issue I forgot: when there are two lines of identical notes, the usual way to beam them is with a straight (not diagonal) beam. This is for musical reasons, not just aesthetic ones.  
Like in the previous examples NWC is not consistent, as the upbeamed group are beames straight and the downbeamed groups are beamed diagonally.  
I think they should be straight.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:16th|Pos:3|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #2 –
Hi Leon,

I've been enjoying your comments and suggestions, welcome to the forum.  

Your stem length concern is for up-stems on beamed notes above the staff.  NWC follows the convention of down-stems for beams on noteheads at or above the middle line of a staff.  You can over-ride that, but I'm not sure that it's fair to expect a $49 program to anticipate every variation from the norm that any user might use.  Change the stem direction to the traditional down, and you'll find the stem lengths look right. Similarly, move the existing up-stem notes down to where up-stem notes would normally be placed, and you'll see the up-stem stem lengths look right.  I'm not saying there's no need for up-stem notes above the middle line, but I hesitate to agree NWC should be criticized for the way it displays them by default.  It's easy enough to fix.  

Quote
...when beamed notes are arranged in diagonal, like in a broken chord, the automatic rearrangement sometimes creates a strange looking result. When beamed downwards they look "crowded" while the same group beamed upwards looks quite ok. (Ex. 3).
The same applies here.  It's not customary to use down-stems as in your first arpeggio so you should not be disappointed that you have to override the stem length of the last note in the group to eliminate the crowding.

Quote
... when there are two lines of identical notes, the usual way to beam them is with a straight (not diagonal) beam. This is for musical reasons, not just aesthetic ones.  Like in the previous examples NWC is not consistent, as the upbeamed group are beames straight and the downbeamed groups are beamed diagonally.  
If you audit the stems in your example, the program will give the correct result, stems down and horizontal beams, with the beams an acceptable distance from the notes.  If you need to have the stems up, then you can easily fix the slope by adjusting the stem length for the first or last note of the group.  In your example the first stem is the better one to tweak.
 

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #3 –
Hi David, thanks for your comments, and thanks for teh greetings:-).

Quote from: David Palmquist –
Your stem length concern is for up-stems on beamed notes above the staff.  
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I'm not saying there's no need for up-stem notes above the middle line, but I hesitate to agree NWC should be criticized for the way it displays them by default. It's easy enough to fix.  
The main point I tried to make was that the stems are too short in 1/16 and 1/32 beamed groups, regardless to the stem direction. The automatic stem direction is ok, I did not criticize that, perhaps my examples created a misunderstanding: I just thought it would be clearer to show the stem lengths outside the staff, but as you can see in the following ex. The stems are too short also when they go according to default stem direction: the first bar is the default stem length, the second my overridden suggestion.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:5|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam=End
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

My second remark was pointed at the inconsistence of NWC stem lengths adjustment: if the stem goes in one direction you get a good result, if it goes in the other direction you get a different (worse) one. Honestly I can't see the logic.

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Clef|Type:Treble
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-8|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-5|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:-4|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam
|Note|Dur:8th|Pos:1|Opts:Stem=Up,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Quote from: David Palmquist –
If you audit the stems in your example, the program will give the correct result, stems down and horizontal beams, with the beams an acceptable distance from the notes.  If you need to have the stems up, then you can easily fix the slope...

Sometimes you need the stems to go against the default direction, so the audit won't help you here. I also understand that there is a way to correct stem lengths manually, the problem is that one needs to do so time after time after time… Again, I don't argue with the default stem direction which I need to change, that' ok. It is what happens afterwards that I am against: and since the stem length adjustment works ok already in one direction, why change it in the other?
 
This is by no means a personal preference of mine: it comes from single staff multi-part writing common needs. Something a pianist or guitarist will encounter on an everyday basis.

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #4 –
I can understand why you might want the stems longer for a written-out termolando of this type; although the default is clear enough, your modified version definitely looks better. However, you only need to adjust the length of the first and last stems in the beamed group. The rest will adjust automatically. So perhaps it is not as much work as you think it is.

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #5 –
Hi William,
I am glad you prefer my suggestion, but I can't claim this idea as mine, you only have to look at the standard stem lenght of beamed notes in good editions to realize I am not inventing anything new. Btw most beamed groups look better with longer stems, not just tremolando. Look how close the G is to the beam in the following ex. (first bar default, second bar manually overriden).

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,Beam=End
|Bar
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=10,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam=End
|Spacer|Width:200
|Text|Text:"OR:"|Font:PageTitleText|Pos:-1|Wide:Y
|Spacer|Width:175
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam=First
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:-1|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=11,Beam
|Note|Dur:32nd|Pos:0|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=12,Beam=End
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I know it's not too difficult to override the default stem lenghts, and of course if you do so once or twice or even ten times it's understandable why you may think it doesn't matter all that much. But it takes a lot of your time if you work on a larger scale, like the 10 pages newly composed (not by me...) sonata for classical guitar solo I am editing now. As in guitar writing the high and low notes reach quite far out of the pentagram, you usually need to leave quite a wide space between the systems in any case: subsequently you want to add as few as posssible extra items above or under the notes/beams, otherwise you'd need to add even grater width between systems, which are usually spaced at about 20 above and 20 belove, leaving you with just 7-8 single staff systems per page. Therefore, the best place to insert fingerings is between the beam and the notehead, but you can't since there not enough room there, even when the fingering fonts are only 8 or 7. So you see, the point I am trying to make stands on both aesthetical and practical grounds. The page looks better and it's created much faster if the note stems are longer. Assuming the majority will agree with the point I am trying to make, the rational thing to do would be to change the default, and I can't see why not as it's not something that needs to be added to the program but a matter of choice. The funny thing is that in many other aspects NWC looks as good and even better than the best editions, so I really hope that at the moment a decision will be taken the NWC staff will adopt the standard lenght of beamed notes from the good example those editions give us in most every way.  

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #6 –
I'm a guitarist, and a composer who sometimes writes for guitar. I'm also just finishing up a two-piano score (14pp) that includes a whole bunch of below- and above-staff writing, and several groups that required cross-staff beaming, so I've been adjusting a lot of stem lengths. I'm not arguing against anything you said. I was merely pointing out that in the example you posted, you appeared to have adjusted the length of each stem in the beamed group. You don't need to. All you have to adjust is the first and last stems - the rest adjust automatically. It's still extra work, but it's a lot less than it may appear at first glance.

And I do think it's mostly aesthetics we're talking about here. You talked about the practicality of needing to place fingerings, etc., between staves or systems as a reason for needing to adjust stem length. And that is sometimes necessary. But most of the time, it requires shortening stems to get the extra notation in - not, as you have been requesting, lengthening them.

Re: Graphics: stem lengths and stem length automatic adjustment

Reply #7 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
All you have to adjust is the first and last stems - the rest adjust automatically.
The rest are ignored. A good thing, I think :)
IMO, NWC should allow stem length adjustments to the nearest 10th, rather than the nearest integer.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Graphics: stem lenghts and stem lenght automatic adjustment

Reply #8 –
Coming to think of it I tend to agree with you William, I guess there is more than one way to cope with a densely populated staff, and after all your needs may vary depending on the kind of work you neeed to do and you personal preferences. For me, shortening the stem is an occasional need, while fitting the fingerings - which often calls for a longer stem - is for almost every bar.
But you will agree with me that  when you need to shorten the stem it matters very little what its initial size is, if it's like now or if it's slightly longer, and since like you said the aesthetic issue it's significant on its own, I think that we can agree in principle so as to be able to get on with our lives :-).

Thanks for the tip regarding the possibility of overriding the first and last note of the group. What I did so far has been overriding the whole group, hoping to get it right in one go... which seldom works :-(. So I guess I'll adopt your suggestion after all.