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Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

A question has been raised in another thread concerning whether or not third-party fonts such as Boxmarks or Lawrie Pardy's "Pardy Pack" should be included in the NoteWorthy Composer installation package, in order to supply musical symbols that NWC does not yet natively support. Since it has been pointed out that continuation of that discussion in the place where it was initiated is a little off-topic, I thought I might move it here. How do NWC users feel about this proposal? (Lawrie, I guess you're excused from needing to offer an opinion. ;-)

The principal "pro" that I can see is that including the extra fonts would provide easy, standardized access to most of the musical symbols that are missing in NWC, which would allow many scores in the Scriptorium that cannot now be properly displayed by casual users to be seen by everyone with an up-to-date version of the program, with all symbols intact. The principal "con" I see is that it might confuse new users who would expect all those text symbols to function during playback. On balance, I think the pros outweigh the cons: I think including the extra symbol fonts  would improve user's experience of the software. Others?

This discussion probably belongs in the Backstage area of this forum, but I have placed it here in order to allow anyone who has been reading the thread where it originated to continue following it. Please chime in.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #1 –
From the beginning I wondered why many symbols were not included in the NWCSTDA.ttf (then NWC2STDA.ttf).
Simply including the plain symbol should have been easy to do.

I had, like many others, to use some extra fonts: Boxmarks etc.

Now it seems that the very good work of Lawrie set a de facto standard (sort of).
The NWC site also provides an installer (even if it's hidden in the guts of the site: not a good idea).
For the almost-IT-illiterate user it's almost a must to have them installed automatically.

Then there is the plethora of scores (cfr. the scripto) that use "old" fonts.

The most frequently used "old" fonts I think are Boxmarks and Boxmark2.
Since Lawrie explicitly made the "new" fonts a superset of the Boxmarkx, it's possible to think of a font substitution table: if the specific font is not available and is in a specific list, then use Lawrie's "equivalent".

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #2 –
If we're talking the font used to make the notes, I would like the option of choosing the embedded (NWC2STDA) font as well as the smaller notes of Staff Cue Symbols for a selected range of notes and rests. 

I do think the full range of available fonts frequently used in NWC should be imported and installed when the programme is installed.  


Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #3 –
I think it all depends on what you mean by installation.  Currently, the Pardypack is available on the NWC installation CD with an installation executable and also a removal executable. When you install, there is also a link to http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/uc/pardypack/
that gives more info and also a copy of the installation and removal executables.

At the moment, If a new user gets the CD, I am not sure how they would know what it's all about. The program that runs up when you put the cd in just says "Explore the Pardy font pack" on the opening dialoge box, which then just dumps you in the file folder on the CD. There is not much, if anything that explains what it is all about. (Well, there may be, but I haven't seen it.)

So when we talk about installation of the fonts, are we talking about automatically installing them into the Windows fonts folder ? Would this be any better. Would the new user know anything more about them?  Would they even know they are there?  I don't think so.

As far as NoteWorthy is concerned, the only fonts that are currently installed (ie immediately ready for use when the program starts) are the NoteWorthy proprietry font, NWC2STDA and also Times New Roman.   Anything else wanted, and the user has to make the connection from Page Setup/Fonts to the font that is installed in windows/Fonts.

So, should the question really be - Should NoteWorthy install the Pardypack fonts, but also have a dedicated slot in its fonts tab that is called (for example) Additional music symbols which initially points to one of the Pardypack fonts, but for which there is a help info describing the other fonts that can be used there?

Unless something of that nature happens, (and I'm not sure of that yet), I don't see the point in automatically installing the fonts, but what I do think is that there should be more information easily available about the fonts within the installation process.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #4 –
Quote
I don't see the point in automatically installing the fonts

Think what happens when a naif user opens a score downloaded from the scripto which uses a "special" font...

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Think what happens when a naif user opens a score downloaded from the scripto which uses a "special" font...

Excellent thought - but then is it justifiable for a professional company such as NoteWorthy Software to liberally force install a number of fonts on their users' systems on the basis that sometime in the future, the user may possibly download a file from the internet that may possibly use a non proprietary font. Would that be professional etiquette? If the fonts were part of the program, that would be a different matter.

An additional thought, it is more likely that an additional font used in files on the Scriptorium will be Boxmarks. That will be overtaken in time by Lawrie's fonts. But for the moment, even if you installed the Pardypack, anyone downloading a piece that used boxmarks would still have a problem. They would need to know that Lawrie's fonts are compatible with boxmarks (versions 1 and 2) and they would still have to change the font.  Unless of course, Boxmarks (1 or/and 2) was force installed as well.

But this has given food for thought - I might look closer at the fonts when I get a Scriptorium submission and make sure that there is some form of note that is in the accompanying info file.

Pity that there is not some form of batch routine I could use that would identify all user fonts used. I'll think about that one - should be possible via nwctxt.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #6 –
Quote
is it justifiable for a professional company such as NoteWorthy Software to liberally force install a number of fonts on their users' systems on the basis that sometime in the future, the user may possibly download a file from the internet that may possibly use a non proprietary font. Would that be professional etiquette?

I don't clearly understand what do you mean with "non proprietary font".

I encountered various "famous" softwares that install a lot of fonts that a day, maybe, perhaps, the user can decide to use.

I also found "famous" sofwares that install EVERYTHING in the package even if you just need one or two of the applications... and they leave you no way to select nor remove anything.
Would that be professional etiquette?
At most, I think the font "incorrectness" you quote is venial.

Quote
it is more likely that an additional font used in files on the Scriptorium will be Boxmarks.

Yes. That's why I suggested an implicit "font substitution table". (And so a couple of fonts is no more needed)

Quote
some form of batch routine I could use that would identify all user fonts used. ... should be possible via nwctxt

Sure.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
I don't clearly understand what do you mean with "non proprietary font".

A font that doesn't, by virtue of trademark or copyright, belong to NoteWorthy.

Quote from: Flurmy –
I encountered various "famous" softwares that install a lot of fonts that a day, maybe, perhaps, the user can decide to use.

That doesn't necessarily make it right to do that, only if the fonts belong to the software package and are an integral part of the package, which is why I talked about perhaps making the fonts an integral part of NoteWorthy.

Quote from: Flurmy –
I also found "famous" sofwares that install EVERYTHING in the package even if you just need one or two of the applications... and they leave you no way to select nor remove anything.

That's a different matter.

But NoteWorthy may not have this opinion in which case ......

Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #8 –
When you click on the <Fonts> tab in the <Page Setup> dialog box, you get a list of fonts ("Staff Italic"/"Staff Bold"/"Staff Lyric"....) plus six "User Font" slots. I think it would be reasonable to add an "Extra Symbols" (or some such name) slot in that list that would point the user to MusicDingsSerif (for compatibility with Times New Roman). An internal translator in the software could optionally point to MusicDingsSerif when it encountered a pointer to Boxmarks. This pointer translation could be turned on by default, with a checkbox under "options" to turn it off, in case a user really wanted Boxmarks. The rest of the PardyPack could be provided as it is currently, to be installed at the user's option. I think that would take care of most of the problems the current situation causes for computer illiterates, without causing Software Bloat, which I also find offensive.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #9 –
Thanks Bill, close to what I was trying to get at in reply 3
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #10 –
Good ideas, Bill.

... Heartily seconded here.

Joe



 

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #11 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
A question has been raised in another thread concerning whether or not third-party fonts such as Boxmarks or Lawrie Pardy's "Pardy Pack" should be included in the NoteWorthy Composer installation package
The question raised was whether or not third-party fonts such as Boxmarks or Lawrie Pardy's "Pardy Pack" should be included in the Viewer installation package.

The claim is that this will enable casual users to view nearly all the song files in the Scriptorium in the way that they were envisioned.

IMO, it would fall far short of this laudable goal. Under U.S. law, all fonts are covered by copyright. A significant number of songs on the Scripto reference fonts whose owners are unknown or cannot be found. This makes them unsuitable for inclusion in a commercial package. I will have nothing more to say on this point as I refuse to debate the sad state of U.S. copyright law.

Some of the fonts that would be needed were created long ago and do not work well with modern screen and printer drivers. Making them available on the Scripto is one thing, including them in a commercial package quite another. In the past, I have had problems with NWORN3.ttf and NWslur.ttf

I have a simple Windows XP Western Language installation, not unlike that of the potential casual user of NWC's Viewer. When I use WordPad's custom font picker, or use an app that invokes the CommonDialog:ShowFont method, I see about 35 options. It is fairly easy to choose a font. I do this several times a week. The advocates would expand this to 50 or more. Not what a casual user of NWC's Viewer would want, I think.

In the past, I have installed the Scorch Viewer. I end up removing it within a few days simply because I tire of wading through all the fonts that it installs (without notification, which does not give me "warm fuzzies" for Sibelius). Call me a "casual ex-user" of this product.

Currently, the Viewer installation package is easily downloadable via dial-up. These users would suffer some impact. I have noticed decreased interest in User Tools as the download and installation requirements have risen.

In summary, the problem is real but the solution proposed is illusory. As a dedicated NWC user, I solved this for myself years ago, but my solution will not help many others.

The ultimate solution is Unicode and a font substitution table, but I digress...
Registered user since 1996

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #12 –
Your points are well taken, Rick.

I'd only suggest that not all Viewer users would be 'casual'.  Some are prospective, quite serious, future Composer users, looking to evaluate the software and moving forward to using it for ensembles.

Humble opinion ... 'First impressions' and 'ease of use' are close friends.  That translates to the new user not having to wade through Windows paths, 'Beta_1' and Win_3.1 notes while trying to manually install some fonts.

NoteWorthy already provides an EXE for installing the PardyPack.  That's painless.

A solution might be to simply provide a separate EXE for installing a 'Legacy Font Pack'.  It would install Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo, as painlessly as for the PardyPack.  A short sentence would explain why it's there.

   ...  And to make both the PardyPack and 'Legacy Font Pack' EXEs more easily found when installing the Viewer.

Joe

.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #13 –
Folks,

... Truly, I'm trying to not saturate this thread by 'harping' on the same point.  It might look otherwise, but I mean it.

Some ideas have been suggested for what to do in Composer.

The issue, I respectfully suggest, happens _before_ a person begins to use Composer either in its trial or registered version.  It comes in the Viewer.

It's a starting issue in both Viewer and Composer, and an ongoing issue in Viewer.  

In an ensemble, several persons (i.e. section leaders and music director(s) -- note:  I'm trying to work with a group that currently has two directors for different repertoire) -- may ultimately shift from Sibelius and work with Composer.  But they begin with Viewer.

And the Scripto's score resource is a _vital_ part of the introduction to NoteWorthy.

The rest of the ensemble (who will rehearse the music, if NoteWorthy works out), will work with Viewer.

So what needs to get done is have an easy-to-execute way for the user to play Scripto music files in Viewer and Composer.

In the long run it's helpful to talk here about how Composer, in future, could perhaps manage font substitutions, e.g. from Boxmarks or Boxmark2 to Lawrie's SwingDings Serif or Sans, perhaps with a font table lookup to swap from one font to another.

But it's not the primary issue.

Viewer is the start.  It must be a simple download and install, and with minimal total 'setup', and it must play Scriptorium files.

Faithfully, with the arpeggios, tremolos, text hairpins, and other 'legacy' symbols already written into them.

- - -

Keeping it simple ...  

Legacy fonts should be bundled into an EXE  --  easily located, clearly and succinctly explained, with minimal clicks to install.  

They should be shown on a page in the context of _both_ the Composer or Viewer install.

Then it's done, clean.

Just one easily found, clearly explained 'legacy fonts' EXE.  No Windows savvy required, no C: drive, no different paths in various Windows versions to navigate, no eyebrows raised at 'Beta' suggestions or 'Windows_3.1' notes.

Read, see, understand, point and click.  Then focus on the music.

Just install the legacy font pack and read the music from the Scriptorium.  

Rick's concern about copyright issues ought to be examined.  If the fonts are already on the Scripto individually, what's the implication for simply putting them into an EXE for bulk installation?

Would it be better to have that EXE on the Scripto, and/or could it be placed alongside Lawrie's PardyPack EXE on the NWC site?

And as has already been mentioned, font packs ought to be shown prominently in the Viewer and Composer EXE download area.

Joe


Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #14 –
IMO, the Viewer would be improved if it gave some notice of fonts referenced in the song that were not present. NWC Beta 2.5 has already been changed to do this. Both the NoteWorthy site and the Scriptorium would be improved if downloading, installing and uninstalling fonts were made more friendly.

I see no reason change the installation package of either the Viewer or NWC Composer.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #15 –
At the risk of seeming somewhat self serving.  Afterall, I do have a vested interest... :)

Perhaps the best approach has already been suggested: make access to the appropriate font suites available via the scripto.

But not in the current manner.  Rather, I suggest, as Joe has previously suggested, that easy installers (and un-installers?) in the form of .exe files be made available on the Scripto.  I think the most effective way would be to place links on the front page along with an alert that there are many works on the Scripto that use characters from 3rd party fonts and that for proper display of those works the appropriate fonts need to be installed.

Another possibility, sorry Rich - even more work for you, might be to have each work that needs additional fonts have an alert on their respective download page of the need for additional fonts and links to the appropriate installer.  The downside of this is that people may repeatedly download and install the same installer in the mistaken belief that they don't already have it.  This is why I favour a single installation alert on the front page where there could be a disclaimer that each installer need only be run once.

The downside of the first approach is for those occasions when people do not enter the Scripto via the front page.  E.G. a link directly to a particular work...

A conundrum for you to sort out I think Rich, sorry mate.

The installers should be smart enough to determine if the fonts are already installed and exit with an advice to the user that the included fonts are already there.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Another possibility, sorry Rich - even more work for you, might be to have each work that needs additional fonts have an alert on their respective download page

Well if you look at reply 5, you will see that I sort of said something like that.
At the moment, I am currently probing each file on the Scriptorium to find out which fonts they thave that are not standard.

The tentative plan is to update the respective info file with information about the font - ie if known, where to download it. You rightly mention the downside of the "front page" approach. This also applies to putting this information inthe info files. People don't necessarily read them.

I think I will just be using download urls where I can find them. So in your case Lawrie, I will probably point to either
http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/uc/pardypack/ or  http://nwc-scriptorium.org/helpful.html#Fonts. We'll see. But I will probably also say something about replacing boxmarks with your fonts.

I don't think I want to include executables for download on the Scriptorium. That would be starting a precedent that I think I would rather steer clear of.

More later when the plan is further along the development path, but the first part is already underway as I type this - ie identifying all the nwc and zip files with fonts that would potentially not be available to the user.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
I don't think I want to include executables for download on the Scriptorium. That would be starting a precedent that I think I would rather steer clear of.
I understand your reluctance but the object is to make installation easy for new/casual and/or non "computer literate" users.  A link to the PardyPack on the the NWC site would at least make it possible to not have that suite as an executable on the Scripto, but for other fonts like Boxmark etc. I think a second installer needs to be created and hosted somewhere.

I do think an easy installation method is important if NWC is not to continue to be disadvantaged.  I'm flattered that so many think that my fonts should siimply be installed as part of the default NWC installation.  I certainly have no objection ;)

Others have correctly, IMHO, identified that the introduction path to NWC for many is the viewer and files from the Scripto.  Making it possible to give new users the best experience achieveable as painlessly as possible is a desireable goal.  Hence the "one click" installation executable.

Also, given that the Scripto is the primary source of NWC files on the internet, it is the obvious location for the font installers.  Or at least links to them.  I also think it important that all the most common fonts, besides my own suites, should be in a single installer.  Your research will reveal which fonts these should be.  It is certainly true that the current font installation methods will not suit most new users, especially those who are not computer literate, hence my fixation on an executable.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #18 –
I like the suggestions that have been made about improving access to the legacy fonts through the Scripto. I still think it would be good to have MusicDingsSerif directly available from within the program. It would need to be made clear that this wouldn't cover everything in the Scripto. But since the PardyPack came out (or even since Boxmarks came out), most of us have defaulted to those fonts. So almost all recent work in the Scripto would be covered, and the proportion would continue to grow.

No solution is going to solve everything.

Bill

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #19 –
Ok ...  well the stats for those that like that kind of thing (I do !)

There are 4308 files in the Scripto catalogue. This breaks down to 3865 .nwc files, 444 .zip files , 4 misc files.
Within the 444 .zip files there are 3807 .nwc files.

Of those, 1282 .nwc files and 229 .zip files have a total of 120 different fonts installed into the different font slots (ignoring NWC2STDA which some have as a user font  and also ignoring Times New Roman which is pre-loaded)

Of those 120,
71 are from who knows where
29 are Windows fonts that can be found in the windows font directory, so no problem there.
9 are already on the Scriptorium (including the 2 boxmarks fonts)
8 are either Lawrie's current fonts or older versions.
2 are old NoteWorthy fonts (NWCV13A and NWCV15)
1 has got an unreadable name

I will ponder further on how to deal with this over the next 2 or 3 days.

Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #20 –
Whew! 

Some of those many fonts might be rarely used ... but it's hard to get by without tremolos, arpeggios, and text hairpins in the 'legacy' NWC music files.

How in the world did you manage to do all that?

Cheers,

Joe
 

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
Of those 120,
71 are from who knows where
29 are Windows fonts that can be found in the windows font directory, so no problem there.
9 are already on the Scriptorium (including the 2 boxmarks fonts)
8 are either Lawrie's current fonts or older versions.
2 are old NoteWorthy fonts (NWCV13A and NWCV15)
1 has got an unreadable name
Far out!
I knew there'd be a few, but 120!

71=How the hell do you cope with all those?
29=No worries
9=stick 'em in an installer, maybe?
8=Already in an installer, though if the "older" ones don't have the current names then those files need to be updated.
2=Perhaps add them to the "9" installer?
1=Wouldn't worry about it I don't think.

This is a rather larger job than I thought it would be.

Here's a thought - many of my unreleased files have fonts listed in them from my old templates but which are not actually used in the particular file.  While it would be a big job, it might be worthwhile checking this out to see whether or not it alleviates the problem.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
Here's a thought - many of my unreleased files have fonts listed in them from my old templates but which are not actually used in the particular file.  While it would be a big job, it might be worthwhile checking this out to see whether or not it alleviates the problem.

Although not impossible to do, I think that would be a step too far for the value you might get from the exercise.  I doubt it would reduce the number of fonts by that many.

I think I  will try and find as many of the 120 as possible and put them on the Scriptorium in some form or other.
There will be some that can't be found and also some that can be found but can't be stored on the Scriptorium because of copyright reasons.

The respective info files can then be updated with a url pointing to the stored font if available.
If not available,  perhaps a message of some sort in the info file to say that the file uses a font not available of the Scriptorium.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #23 –
Fair enough.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
...

I think I will try and find as many of the 120 as possible and put them on the Scriptorium in some form or other.
There will be some that can't be found and also some that can be found but can't be stored on the Scriptorium because of copyright reasons.

That sounds like a massive job.

For starts, would it be possible to put three fonts  --  Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo  --  together into a single EXE for one download and installation?

They have the arpeggio, tremolo, and text hairpin symbols, used in 'legacy' scores before Lawrie's Dings suites.

Also, any way that one can help?

Joe

 

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #25 –
Thanks Joe,

Much of the work has already been completed. Thanks to Rick for finding many of the fonts. Currently, I'm in the process of building a new Scriptorium page which will hopefully be a font repository with either a direct download link to a scriptorium file or a link to where the font or a similar font may be found (although similar fonts will be no use for viewer users).

The relevant info files will also be updated with the links so that people downloading the file for use in either Composer or Viewer will be able to know where to get any configured fonts - providing they look at the info file of course. (Haven't quite worked how to update the info files yet, but one step at a time. Shouldn't be a problem, just haven't gone there yet.)

Although I have the wherewithall to create self extracting exe files, I do not wish to go there. It is better that there is no .exe file on the Scriptorium and then there is no precedent set for others to think that the Scriptorium can host all sorts of executables that may contain something dangerous.

I could put three in a zip file and will consider it - but at the moment, I'm not too sure of the value of doubling up the downloads since I would still have to have the individual downloads anyway. The user that has seen that crescendo is needed will not necessarily also want to download boxmarks and boxmarks2 or know that they should look under B for boxmarks rather than C for Crescendo, although in that case, they should be close together so would probably be spotted.
 
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #26 –
Ay, ay, ay ...

Then we're nearly back where we started, perhaps even a bit worse off --

It sounds like, instead of having Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo on a page with about 20, they'll be in a list of dozens more.  The searcher only has the fact that they're near alphabetically to help in finding them.

Finding was the first task.  Then comes the rest of the job.

Pick a font.  Download the zip.  Unzip it to a folder.  See notes about a Beta release and Windows 3.1.  Then (we have different individuals here, with different versions of Windows, and often minimal Windows expertise), try to navigate this particular PC's Windows root path, clicking to view it in My Computer in case it's been defaulted to Hidden, finally to get into a FONT folder.  Then find a menu having "Install New Font" and go back and highlight the TTF file in the original download folder, and install it.

That got Boxmarks done.  Repeat for Boxmark2.  Repeat for Crescendo.

You can be gentle and upbeat on the telephone, and you must be, while helping someone through this.  But no serious musician who's already comfortable with Sibelius, who has a busy schedule, has a chorus to consider for distributing NWC music files for use with the Viewer, where each of those Viewer users must go through the same steps, is going to put up with that nonsense.

NoteWorthy just falls off the spectrum.  We tried so hard to get the Viewer updated, and now it is spectacular.  It just can't read some 'legacy' files, now on the Scriptorium and of superb value in getting the message across, without really goofy looking capital P's and D's and other stuff showing up in the scores.  And no arpeggios or crescendos or decrescendos.

I don't know what was in those 120 font files, but Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo were vital.  They gave hairpins at a time when they were missing in NoteWorthy.  And they give arpeggios, tremolos, glissandos, turns, duplets, and more that are still missing, in music files that existed before Lawrie's 'Dings' suites came into being, and exist today.

With deep respect all the way, humble opinion:  just putting all three fonts into a zip file that still leaves the user -- including multiple users, in the case of an ensemble  --  with three manual installs, is not enough.

If the Scripto can't host a single EXE that simply installs all three:  Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo, then NoteWorthy ought to host it.  And make it easily visible.

Joe


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Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Joseph Roberts –
Then we're nearly back where we started, perhaps even a bit worse off --

And with all due respect to you Joe, if you think we are back where we started or even worse off, after all the work that has been going on, then we might as well pack up and not bother any more.

As far as boxmarks, boxmarks2 and crescendo is concerned - it can't be worse off since those are already on the Scripto in individual form for download. They will now also be in in a dedicated area for fonts. In addition, any file that uses any one of the three will have the info file updated to say where the fonts can be found.

How can that be worse off.

As far as the other fonts are concerned, it would have been that the user, if they wanted to find the fonts, would have had to search for them themselves. Now there will be a dedicated area where they can either download or find the link to download file.

How can that be worse off.

I can't help the fact that someone loading a nwc file into the viewer cannot see what fonts are required, but at least the case will be that if they look in the info file, the information will be there.

How can that be worse off.

Well, Joe, you don't have to look at the font page when it has been completed, you don't have to look at the info file when they have been updated, you can search the internet for all the fonts you want - then you won't be worse off.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #28 –
Let me first state that I am not a computer guru...

Can not a font be embedded in a nwc file just like fonts can be embedded in a pdf file ?  Maybe this can be done with the option of over-riding that when using the composer only.  Would that be breaking copyright ?

Hope I've not opened a can of worms with that ...

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #29 –
Rich,

(Reply to #27)

Thank you for explaining it in such detail.

What I meant was, with the addition to the fonts list of another several dozen or so files, the person looking for Boxmarks, Boxmark2 and Crescendo would be confronted with an even longer list than is there now.

It sounds like with the hard work on your part, the fonts required for any particular NWC music file can be more easily identified.

Please, I respectfully submit this point:

The main issue is _not_ in finding those three fonts, or even in combining them into one 'zip' file.

The main issue is the installation of the fonts, once they're downloaded.

There is no way non-Windows-savvy people  --  several dozen people, in an ensemble beginning with Viewer for their NoteWorthy introduction  --  are each going to negotiate those Windows paths, and get them consistently right.

It just isn't going to happen.

All those 120-odd fonts could do all sorts of good things, helpful to exotic, whatever their creators meant them for.

But three fonts are crucial to viewing older NWC files because they contain the standard music symbols that were missing from NWC when that music was written.

We _must_ be able to view arpeggios, tremolos, glissandos, and text hairpins in the older scores that existed before Lawrie's 'Dings' became available.  

There is no way Viewer will be accepted in an ensemble with multiple people, some (if not most) unfamiliar with their current Windows version's paths, unless Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo can be as easily installed as Lawrie's 'Dings' are.

NWC has already acknowledged the need for those symbols -- minus the text hairpins -- by hosting Lawrie's 'Dings' suites in a painless EXE installer.

That takes care of recent NWC music files.  But not the older ones.

NWC needs to do the same thing for the older ones -- host Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo, in a painless EXE installer.

Just the plain fact.  Not meant to be offensive to anyone.

Joe


Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #30 –
Quote from: melismata –
Can not a font be embedded in a nwc file just like fonts can be embedded in a pdf file ? 

Unfortunately, they can't. It would make life easier, but it would also probably make the NoteWorthy file grow in size.

Quote from: melismata –
Would that be breaking copyright ?

Possibly - I'm not sure how Adobe get round that.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #31 –
I agree that the Viewer will be more useful if:
Quote from: Joseph Roberts –
Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo can be as easily installed as Lawrie's 'Dings' are.
For that to happen, someone has to build the installation package and someone needs to agree to host it via a permanent link.

Absent a better analysis of the fonts used by Scripto songs, I'm not sure that "Boxmarks, Boxmark2, and Crescendo" is the optimal list. 'NWC Extra Ornaments v3', 'NoteHedz', 'NWslur', 'Mus6NWC slurs Medium', 'TimeItal', et al. merit consideration.

FWIW, when I am trying to convince folks to invest time or money in an idea, I adopt a gentler tone. I save my bile for those who advocate change without consideration of how others use their computers.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #32 –


A little has been said here about Copyright.  I think it might be worth observing that Copyright is all about actual copying, not about making something that just happens to look the same.

Moreover, going back to a font old enough that it no longer enjoys Copyright, and actually copying (items in) that font, is not an infringement, for there is no longer any Right to infringe.  This is true even though there may be a later version of the font (items) young enough that there might be thought to be some extant Copyright.

Furthermore, while slavishly copying (items in) a font in which there is Copyright would be an infringement of that Right, devising (the items in) a font independently is NOT infringement even though the devised font looks the same.

Reading http colon-slash-slash nwalsh.com/comp.fonts/FAQ/index.html might be interesting.

MusicJohn, 26/Sep/11

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #33 –
Rick suggested
Quote
IMO, the Viewer would be improved if it gave some notice of fonts referenced in the song that were not present. NWC Beta 2.5 has already been changed to do this.
I like this idea, even though I never use the Viewer.  I didn't even know NWC Beta 2.5 does this, but then I have every font designed by man or beast installed, I think, and I seldom open files created by others.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #34 –
Quote
Would that be breaking copyright ?

Possibly - I'm not sure how Adobe get round that.

Each TTF has a flag that indicates if that particular font is allowed to be embedded or not.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #35 –
I have now completed a new html page for the Scriptorium.

This lists the non standard fonts (i.e. those that are not installed with Windows) that have been configured in certain nwc files that are available for download from the Scriptorium.

The Scriptorium will either host the font for easy download, or if the font is a commercial font, a link will point to where you can get it. There may also be a link to an alternate free font where one has been found.

In addition, where a Scriptorium file has had a non standard font configured, then the accompanying info file (the more link on composers' pages) has also been updated with the font name and where to download it.

http://nwc-scriptorium.org/sfontr.html

Also see  http://nwc-scriptorium.org/db/anthems/bagnatem2.html  as an example of the updated info file.

Much thanks to Rick G. for tracking down many of these fonts.
Rich.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #36 –
Nicely done, Rich! 

Also thanks to both Rich and Rick for the list of fonts - I found a couple that I think are quite beautiful.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #37 –
Well done Rich and Rick, lotsa work there.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #38 –
Great job! This will be a big help, and not only for newbies.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #39 –
Great Job.
Thanks Rich and Rick.
I'm amazed at how many fonts are available.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #40 –
Quote
I'm amazed at how many fonts are available.

I'm sorry at how many fonts are available for lack of a standard...

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #41 –

[frank_talk]

[kudos]
Thank you Rich and Rick, we all owe you a strong debt of gratitude, and so will future NWC users who are attracted to the software from the wealth of music in the Scriptorium.  It has been a massive task, done by dedicated people.
[/kudos]

[rant]
Eric, you know only too well that this discussion never should have had to take place.  For example, scan the Scripto to see how many files have had to use Boxmarks.  Think back to six years and three newsgroups ago, and the font discussions that were there then.
[/rant]

[/frank_talk]

Joe

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #42 –
Today I discovered I had a program on my system that is great for viewing fonts:
Free&Easy Font Viewer 1.2, a "lite" version of Advanced Font Viewer 2.3
I probably downloaded it a LONG time ago, but haven't needed to use it recently.

Anyway, while I haven't upgraded to Free&Easy Font Viewer 2, it is freeware available at http://www.styopkin.com/downloads.html

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #43 –
The Pardy Pack fonts are bundled into the NWC Viewer Version 2.5.5. This enables authors to create NWC files that utilize the Pardy Pack fonts and be confident that users will see the content as intended as long as they are using NWC Viewer 2.5.5 or later.

Quote from: NoteWorthy Online –
NoteWorthy Composer Viewer Version 2.5.5 will include Lawrie Pardy's Font Pack for all users.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #44 –
Thanks, Eric.

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #45 –
Excellent!  Well done!

Besides the Viewer ...

Can they soon please be incorporated in the next Composer installation too?

Then we're working with the same fonts consistently for score composition and distribution, without an extra hitch.

Thank you, Eric.

Joe

Re: Extra fonts in the NWC installation pack?

Reply #46 –
The approach has to be different for Composer, since the font has to be available to Composer before it can be used by someone creating the content. At the moment, installing the Pardy Pack is the easiest way to deal with this for those that edit/create NWC files.