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Alignment problem

How can I put the 1/8 notes in the bass in the middle of a string of grace notes like in the image attached?
(Of course only for visual purposes)

[attachment deleted by user]

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #1 –
You can't without a custom font. I might be able to do it in NWC 2.5 Beta. Would you like me to try?
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #2 –
Sure!
Beta 2.5 is not an issue for me, of course.

I knew you'd take the challenge! ;-)

N.B. I think Pierné was not so good at mathematics: in that score there are a couple of 6/8 bars in which there are 7/8 and another couple with 13/16 with no indications of n-plets nor grace notes nor "ad libitum" or "freely"...
And it's not a romantic! :-)

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #3 –
It still needs a custom font :(

I think this would have worked:
Quote from: Rick G. –
Enter a normal rest. Optionally, set its Vertical Offset.

Now imagine that you could set the Grace Note attribute and use Ctrl+Enter to make a RestChord. Now futher imagine that since Grace Notes have no real duration, NWC2 would let you use any duration for the Grace Note and use the duration of the rest as the duration of the object. Finally, imagine that RestChords can be beamed ...

NWC2 would now support cues, cadenzas and (with a layer) descants.

Nah, too easy. It would never work
Oh well.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #4 –
To be sure of an impossibility is by itself a good thing.

Thanks anyway.

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #5 –
This is as close as I can get.

I don't know how many points I'm worth, but you got them :)
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #7 –
Flurmy asks
Quote
How can I put the 1/8 notes in the bass in the middle of a string of grace notes like in the image attached?

Try:
1  If your staff metrics are set to 18, set Userfont 2 to "Staff symbols NWC2STDA" size 24 and set Userfont 3 to "Staff symbols NWC2STDA" size 48.
2.  Add a layered staff to go below the bass line. 
3  Match all of the grace notes above with grace rests, visibility = never. 
4. Create a visible stem-down 32nd note chord Ab and Ab', using blank noteheads and stem length = 0.  You may have to create this chord with ordinary notes first, and then change the chord to grace notes.  This will give you leger lines for the chord but the grace note chord will be invisible.  Find the 32nd note rest nearest the centre of the batch, and replace it with the grace note chord.
5.  You will now have three leger lines showing at the correct position for your eighth note chord, but no notes showing.
6.  Make 2 text entry noteheads immediately before the chord, set to justified centre and placed at next note.  These are created with the lower case letter "k" in Userfont 2.  Move the first to the A position below the staff, and the second to the the lower A position within the staff.
7.  Now add your stems, again using text.  You'll need two of them, made with the lower case letter "l" (L) in Userfont 3. You might need one more to fill up gaps when you adjust positions for the next step.
8.  Finally, make a text entry for the stem flag, with Userfont 2 and the pipe symbol ("|")on your keyboard.

The second measure of this new staff should now be:
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Bar|XBarCnt:Y|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:8th,DblDotted|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:16th,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:16th,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:"k"|Font:User2|Pos:1|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:User3|Pos:-7|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"‡\|"|Font:User2|Pos:-14|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"k"|Font:User2|Pos:-6|Justify:Center|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:User3|Pos:-8|Placement:AtNextNote
|Text|Text:"\|"|Font:User3|Pos:0|Placement:AtNextNote
|Note|Dur:32nd,Grace|Pos:-4z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=0
|Chord|Dur:32nd,Grace|Pos:-10z,-3z|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=0
|Rest|Dur:64th,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:64th,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:32nd,Grace|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:16th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Rest|Dur:8th,Dotted|Opts:Stem=Up|Visibility:Never
|Bar|XBarCnt:Y|Visibility:Never
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I hope I described it correctly.  It seems to work on my screen, but I can't guarantee I got it right.




Re: Alignment problem

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
It still needs a custom font :(
I wrote too soon. The attached should suffice. Playback sounds OK.
Uses MusikDingsSans for the Arpeggios, available from http://ntworthy.com/uc/pardypack/
For those not using NWC 2.5, you might try the free NWC Viewer 2.5 Beta.
Complete Score available here: http://imslp.org/wiki/Impromptu-caprice,_Op.9_(Piern%C3%A9,_Gabriel)
Looks like a challenge for NWC.

Attachment removed.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #9 –
Impressive work, Rick.
You tried to replicate the exact appearance of the score, including the tightly packed normal notes needed in the original score to avoid a staff break!
I must say that I didn't played yet with the new spacers, so I was surprised by your use of |Spacer|Width:0
Nice trick to have the grace notes closer than the standard.
But I have no need to mangle with that.

I'm still longing for a native 8va lines support. I hate to have to manually adjust the line length, not to say when a staff break is automatically inserted...

Quote
http://imslp.org/wiki/Impromptu-caprice,_Op.9_(Piern%C3%A9,_Gabriel)

Yes, that's the score I used. It has some difficulties.
For example, the long sections of "ad libitum", without bars, are a PITA to edit in NWC but, beside that, there are some problems with the "temporary" accidentals. The score assumes that, when the staff is broken, then the "temporary" accidentals are reset. NWC of course does not.
I decided to notate the accidentals as needed and also to add hidden bar lines to help me editing and also to double check that the two staves are in synch!
There are also a couple of obvious errors here and there.
Then note the bars just after the last "A tempo (assez vivement)": as I already wrote, two are 7/8 and one is 13/16!

Another request: I recreated the two staves arpeggios using the layered staves to "join" the upper and lover arpeggio marks. Is it there an easier method?
I have somewhere some score with the trick but I don't remember which are them and looking at all the scores...
It's easier to exploit the memory (and the cleverness) of Rick... or Rich... or someone else. ;-)

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
Nice trick to have the grace notes closer than the standard.
But I have no need to mangle with that.
I infer that you just want to view and watch the note chase?
This is an important point. Viewing and printing are often in conflict. If the score is to be printed, printing considerations override the "viewing experience". Please advise so I know how to address your other questions.

The trick to editing long measures is add hidden barlines, even if it breaks beams. One can remove them and rebeam at the end of the edit process.

As to 7/8, 13/16: Look at the beams. Obvious to me that each beam gets one beat. There probably ought to be 7-tuplet numerals centered on the appropriate beams and corresponding tempo adjustments to compensate for NWC's annoying lack of n-tuplet support. IMNSHO, the entire last page is in 6/8. I would not think it has "obvious errors".
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #11 –
Quote
I infer that you just want to view and watch the note chase?

No.
Note chase can be important for the scores I notate for my daughter, but this is not the case (yet): too difficult for her! (and for me ;-)

What I mean is that the printed score had to pack the last bars to avoid to add one more page for just a bar or two.
I don't know how many pages will take my NWC print, so I really don't want to bother with the note packing.
Furthermore, I have many other ways to fit the score.

Quote
Please advise so I know how to address your other questions.

Usually I'm interested in how it plays and how it prints; how it's viewed is often scarcely relevant to me, but normally I try to leave the formatting as much as possible to NWC.
If something isn't perfect (e.g. slurs...) it's a pity, but I hope it'll be better some day. ;-)

Quote
IMNSHO, the entire last page is in 6/8. I would not think it has "obvious errors".

The last page no, but some previous other yes.
For example: in the harp (orchestral harp), if you have a F# then ALL the F are F#, unless you have time to fiddle with the pedals. Well, some notes of the score lacks the accidental present in the same note but in other octaves.
And so on. That's what I call "obvious errors".
Since I notate myself, I know how easy is to overlook something! Indeed, the ear is of big help in those cases.

Quote
The trick to editing long measures is add hidden barlines, even if it breaks beams. One can remove them and rebeam at the end of the edit process.

If the hidden bar lines don't break beams I don't see any reason to remove them.
By the way: they make editing much easier and help me verifying that the staves are in synch, but there is no need to respect a specific tempo (indeed, often no tempo is specified!) so, unless you have a VERY long beam, you can put them where they do no harm.

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #12 –
Quote from: Flurmy link=topic=7853.msg54682#msg54682
Another request: I recreated the two staves arpeggios using the layered staves to "join" the upper and lover arpeggio marks. Is it there an easier method?
I have somewhere some score with the trick but I don't remember which are them and looking at all the scores...
It's easier to exploit the memory (and the cleverness) of Rick... or Rich... or someone else. ;-)
The only system arpeggio I see is at the beginning of the 4th system of page 5. See the attachment.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #13 –
Quote
The only system arpeggio I see is at the beginning of the 4th system of page 5.

Yes, correct.
But it's so frequent in literature (harp, but also piano) that in reality my question was general.
I should have started a different topic, sorry.

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #14 –
A better version of the final measures.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #15 –
A-ha!
The trick for the system arpeggio is simply to use Placement:AtNextNote.
I supposed there had to be a simple solution.
Ideed it's obvious and I think I tried it, but apparently I made a mistake somewhere.
I didn't expect to be so stupid... or, hopefully, I was simply sleepy... :-(

About the alignment problem, as usual Rick is incredible!

David,
I have some problems with your trick, as you can see in the attached image.
Thank you for trying, anyway.

Re: Alignment problem

Reply #16 –
Quote
I have some problems with your trick, as you can see in the attached image.

I can't replicate it just now either.  Sigh.