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Topic: Uneven ladder... (Read 11869 times) previous topic - next topic

Uneven ladder...

I'm surprised by the positioning of the accidentals in this chord:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-8,b-4,n-1,n1|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

I expected a sort of "ladder" with the flat as the leftmost, then the middle natural and the upper natural as the rightmost.

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #1 –
This appears to be correct. See  Alfred's Essential Dictionary of  Music Notation.
Carl Bangs
Fenwick Parva Press
Registered user since 1995

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #2 –
Well, I don't have the good old Alfred, but that arrangement looks odd to me.
And I'm in good company: the score I was copying is printed exactly as I described.

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #3 –
I think NWC has it right, Maurizio. I think what looks odd here is that each accidental has to take its full space, because the upper natural and that flat at the bottom are too close together to place the flat under the natural. If the music were hand-engraved, the engraver would probably slip the flat about a half-space to the right, so that the "baby bulge" of the flat (does anyone have a better name?) would slide in under the upper natural and the flag would run up right next to it. That would allow your "ladder of accidentals" to take less horizontal space and so appear neater and better organized. NWC can't do that; the accidentals have to be either completely aligned vertically or completely side-by-side.

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #5 –
Exactly. Thanks for illustrating what I was talking about, Rick.

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #6 –
Just to be sure, that's what I expected.
(A picture is worth a thousand words; a slide show is both...)

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Flurmy –
A picture is worth a thousand words;
That one isn't. NWC's ordering is correct. If you paid for that score you should ask for some money back  :)
Registered user since 1996

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #8 –
...and that's actually an Adim chord, not a Cdim. Not that Astor Piazzolla didn't know what he was doing....

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #9 –
NWC 2.5 will let you do this:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:b-4X|Opts:Muted|Visibility:Never
|Text|Text:"f___ "|Font:StaffSymbols|Pos:-4|Justify:Right|Placement:AtNextNote
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-8,-4,n-1,n1|Opts:Stem=Up
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #10 –
FWIW, I just came across the Music Publishers Association rules, at http://mpa.org/music_notation/standard_practice.pdf (see page 8)

It calls for the highest accidental to be placed nearest the chord, the next one down to be placed to its left, the one below that to be placed further left, etc., until there's room to put one next to the chord again; if so, the ladder builds starts downward to the left again.

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #11 –
I know which format I prefer.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #12 –
I agree with Rick. I think also that I've seen many, many more of the "Alfred" type of accidental placement than the "MPA" accidental placement in published documents.
 

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #13 –
I don't understand why NWC put the flat sign after the lower natural in the chord Maurizio started this thread with.  NWC2 seems to follow the rule set by MPA, at least when there are lots of accidentals in the chord:

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.5,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#-9,#-8,#-6,#-4,#-3,#-1,#1,#3,#5,#6,#8,#10
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#-9,#-8,#-6,#-4,#-3,#-1,#1,#3,#5,n6,#8,#10
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n-9,n-8,n-6,n-4,n-3,n-1,n1,n3,n5,n6,n8,n10
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n-9,b-8,b-6,n-4,n-3,n-1,n1,n3,b5,b6,b8,b10
|Bar
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Looks like a series of staircases.

Anyway, it's not an issue for me; I was just passing on my "find."

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #14 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
I don't understand why NWC put the flat sign after the lower natural in the chord Maurizio started this thread with.
Perhaps because to do otherwise would be difficult to defend :)

I really don't care how NWC orders accidentals when there are more than half a dozen in a chord. Such things will not appear in music that I edit. But for chords that a piano player is expected to read on the fly, the ordering is important.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #15 –
Quote
I know which format I prefer.

Me too... and I think we agree.

Re: Uneven ladder...

Reply #16 –
Elaine Gould's new-ish book - "Behind Bars" is gaining good traction as the new music typography bible.  She says, for close packed chords, "Place the highest accidental closest to the chord, followed by the lowest, moving left from the chord and alternating the remainder between highest and lowest."  So she agrees with Alfred.  Trust everyone else does, too.