Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem (Read 12073 times) previous topic - next topic

Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

In the attached file measure 10 I have a chord that contains c and c# but in performance that would be difficult to discern. What recommendations do you have to make it possible to read this chord and still have it be a chord.

Then in measure 17 there is an errant tie.  Which in playback often does not show as it scrolls but printed and file view and often in cntrl>g 17 does show up.

I've tried to see where my fault is but have no more ideas.

Thanks for any help.
Jay

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #1 –
In general, I would recommend re-spelling your C# over C chord at bar 10.

In bar 14, your lower C# note in the third chord is tied into a C natural. This causes your hanging tie. Your intention for this tie sequence is unclear, but when I removed the natural sign, the hanging tie went away:

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#-8^,-7^,-5^
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-8^,-7,-5^
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:#-10,-8,-5
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Frybyte –
What recommendations do you have to make it possible to read this chord and still have it be a chord.
I would use at least 2 layers for the left hand. I would also try re-spelling the entire piece in flats. Judging by the final cadence, Ab Db Major would seem to be the proper key and might eliminate all or most of the "augmented unisons". If your aim is to produce a piano score, some judicious use of the sustain pedal might allow you to eliminate some of the chord clusters.

I suspect that clashes like these were one reason that NoteWorthy abandoned 2 voices on one staff and implemented layering over ten years ago.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #3 –
There are ways to write the left hand without using layers. Here's one of them:

Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,ArticulationsOnStem|Dur2:Half,Dotted|Pos2:#-1
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:n-1|Opts:Stem=Up
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:#2|Opts:Stem=Up
|Rest|Dur:4th
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

However, I agree with Rick that layers would be a better way to go. I also agree with both Eric and Rick that some respelling needs to be done. When you have a pattern like C#-C natural-C#, it's usually a clue that the C# should be a Db. Also, changing A-A#-C to A-Bb-C gives you a clear stepwise pattern instead of a chromatic line, and is probably actually what is happening musically at that point. And your last chord, which looks like unrelated notes the way it is currently spelled, is actually a Db Major chord in second inversion. The piece also starts on a Db, if you respell the first notes. So I would suspect Db rather than Ab as the proper key.

Try this. Place a Db signature at the beginning of each staff; force accidentals (tools>force accidentals on the menu bar); then audit enharmonic spelling (tools>audit enharmonic spelling ) You will find that most of the accidentals disappear and the music looks much cleaner and easier to read.

Cheers -

Bill

*edited audit accidentals to audit enharmonic spelling (after shifting brain into gear). Also, you need to force accidentals before placing the key signature rather than after. Too early in the morning....

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #4 –
Quote
Place a Db signature at the beginning of each staff; force accidentals (tools>force accidentals on the menu bar);

Bill, are you sure?
I'm in a hurry now so I haven't reflected much on this specific problem, but usually I need to do exactly the opposite.
First I have to force accidentals, then I change/put the new key.

At last, of course, tools>audit enharmonic spelling.

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #5 –
Thanks for finding the hanging tie.

Layering doesn't do anything to solve the problem. Unless you mean make it more like an organ/trio score and leave that note hanging out there using up a whole line of a system?

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are talking about in terms of "spelling".

I have been using lilypond for many years and the nwc 'spelling' that you are currently using is incomprehensible to me.  After many  iterations of NWC (I started when it was on a floppy disk 1.55b) I don't understand the use of the txt files- perhaps someday?

As for changing the key that only works when you are on a keyboard.  This will eventually be for strings/winds and the change you suggest would completely alter the overtones etc....

Ok now there's a third reply- is everyone using txt to enter notes in NWC now?  I still believe that there is a huge difference between a c# and db so that just isn't a solution.  But this is turning into a pretty good learning situation for me .


Thanks for the suggestions so far.
Jay

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #6 –
Jay, with the NWC text, all you have to do is copy the text excerpt and paste it into a staff. NWC will interpret it as notes. You do have to be using NWC2 to make this happen.

"Spelling" in music is how you name a note. On a piano, the same black key is used for C# and Db. But one is spelled as a C and the other is spelled as a D.

And yes, there is a difference between C# and Db (for string players or vocalists - keyboard players don't recognize one). But I think in the case of this piece you are actually writing Dbs instead of C#s. That last chord really is a Db chord - the F natural makes that very clear.

If you try what I suggested with the Db key signature (flurmy is right - you have to force accidentals first - you will find that NWC chokes on your left hand staff. That is an indication that there are problems in your notation. One of them is the excessive use of ties where restchords (chords with both notes and a rest in them) might work better. Changing those won't solve all your problems, but it will solve some of them.

I hope you realize that all of us mean these as constructive suggestions....

Cheers,

Bill
 

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Frybyte –
Layering doesn't do anything to solve the problem.
If you are going to insist on sharps, no Key Signature and putting 3 voices on one displayed staff, I find the layered attachment much more readable. YMMV

Since this is ultimately for woodwinds and strings, why not put each voice on it's own staff? IMO, with pitches this close together, voices sharing a staff is not a good idea.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Recommendations for two note chords c, c# and a printing problem

Reply #8 –
Quote
Since this is ultimately for woodwinds and strings, why not put each voice on it's own staff? IMO, with pitches this close together, voices sharing a staff is not a good idea.

Indeed, winds can only play one pitch at a time, and it is far more common to have separate staffs for each part than combine two or three on one staff. 

If you must have more than one part on a page,** I suggest separate staffs, set to Orchestral style.  You can keep the overall height of each staff the same, but for the top staff, increase the top vertical height setting and reduce the bottom.  For the bottom staff, do the opposite.  Set text entries to Visibility - Top Staff Only so rehearsal letters and other text applying to both parts only print once.

** (Sometimes a performer needs 2 or 3 parts on the stand. I use a horn to cover trombone in my Ellington band, and depending on who shows up, I want the horn to play the uncovered parts without having to struggle with several sheets of paper.)