G and G# together?

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G and G# together?

2009-08-13 07:11 am

Hi Guys,
Is there a way in NWC2 to force G and G# in a chord to be played/displayed simultaneously without putting the two notes on different staves?
Thanks,
Grant

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #1 – 2009-08-13 07:14 am

Did you mean this?

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n-2|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:#-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #2 – 2009-08-13 07:39 am

Not being accustomed to piano charts, I need to ask: Is any musician going to understand two conflicting accidentals on the same note? I assume the opposite stem directions will mean something to the person playing it.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #3 – 2009-08-13 09:58 am

G'day Grant,

Quote from: babycatcher – 2009-08-13 07:11 am

Is there a way in NWC2 to force G and G# in a chord to be played/displayed simultaneously without putting the two notes on different staves?

I'd think it would be less confusing to use G and Ab or Fx and G#:

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-2,b-1
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:x-3,#-2
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

The chord to use would depend on the context of the music - what key it's in.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #4 – 2009-08-13 02:41 pm

I caught that.
But Babycatcher said "G and G#" not "G and Ab" or "Fx and G#".
If you want printing, you'd rather do as mine, but if you think it's confusing, do as Lawrie's.
The sound is same.

Code: [Select · Download]

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n-2|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:#-2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:x-3,#-2
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:n-2,b-1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

If you go to the top menu "Tools" and run "Audit Enharmonic Spellings", the notes at the left side doesn't change; the others change into G and Ab.

HTH. Sesirine. E

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #5 – 2009-08-13 09:53 pm

Quote from: David Palmquist – 2009-08-13 07:39 am

Is any musician going to understand two conflicting accidentals on the same note?

On first reading, I would just play a g# on the assumption that there was a g dbl# lurking somewhere in the score.

I would need something like the attached graphic to get me to play 2 notes.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #6 – 2009-08-13 10:31 pm

Or this (see attachment). I know of no way to do either Rick's version or mine without layering.

Bill

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #7 – 2009-08-13 11:26 pm

Bill's construct is possible on one staff - select natural and press <Enter> then select sharp and press <Ctrl-Enter>

Being a pianist, Rick is probably better positioned than I am to determine legibility, playing trombone doesn't give much opportunity to play chords like that...

However, if sight reading, I still reckon it would be quicker to recognise 2 enharmonically equivalent notes than one note with 2 accidentals in a chord.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #8 – 2009-08-14 12:01 am

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2009-08-13 11:26 pm

Bill's construct is possible on one staff - select natural and press <Enter> then select sharp and press <Ctrl-Enter>

That only gets you one notehead (unless the noteheads are different). In piano music, one sees so many notes with opposing stems. That alone would not get me to play two notes. The modern convention is that a sharp cancels a dbl sharp, but there is still a lot of music around that uses natural+sharp where there is a dbl sharp lurking somewhere in the recent past. In a great deal of piano music, it is very difficult to determine if an accidental is just a courtesy. Many times, I see an accidental and my first thought is: "What did I miss?"

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2009-08-13 11:26 pm

However, if sight reading, I still reckon it would be quicker to recognise 2 enharmonically equivalent notes than one note with 2 accidentals in a chord.

Much music is written with chord structure clarity more important than easy sight reading. IMO, it is better to learn how to sight read it than curse it. If studying or arranging a piece of music, I much prefer chord structure clarity to easy sight reading.

Some chord constructs are so bizarre that they defy reading. Many pianists will simply memorize sections that they find unreadable and move on. That is not a option for me so, I use NWC2 (or Lilypond) to create something that I can consistently read.

/my 2¢

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2009-08-13 10:31 pm

I know of no way to do either Rick's version or mine without layering.

Your version and a variant:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:-4z^,0z^|Opts:NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z,n-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=5|Dur2:4th|Pos2:#-2,0z
|Chord|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:-4z^,0z^|Opts:NoLegerLines,Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:4th|Pos:-4z,#-2|Opts:Stem=Down,StemLength=5|Dur2:4th|Pos2:n-2,0z
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Sneaky, but it works.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #9 – 2009-08-14 03:27 am

Rick is right. Check the properties of the note on the second staff of my example. You need to pad both the accidental and the note with extra spaces (one each). In this construct, the stems - rather than the note heads - have to line up.

And Rick is also right in saying that the enharmonic spelling you choose should accurately reflect the chord structure. In fact, I would contend that making the music notation match the chord structure actually makes it easier to read, when you consider the chords in context rather than individually - as you should in sight reading. Whether you see an A^b or a G^# should give you a heads-up about where the music will be going next (sharps should lead up and flats should lead down). This is true even in atonal music. I once had the head of the composition department at our local university tell me that it didn't matter whether I used a sharp or a flat because "this is modern music." Bull. Tendency tones are still tendency tones, whether you are building chords by thirds or juxtaposing notes pulled out of a twelve-tone series. The ear still rules.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #10 – 2009-08-14 04:30 am

Quote from: William Ashworth – 2009-08-14 03:27 am

Whether you see an A^b or a G^# should give you a heads-up about where the music will be going next (sharps should lead up and flats should lead down).

Bill, you have probably forgotten more about music theory than I will ever know but, I think you read too much into the up=sharps/down=flats convention. Used in chromatic runs, the convention minimizes the need to cancel accidentals. Nothing more. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I certainly would not assume that if I saw G, G# at the right edge of the page that the next note would be higher.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #11 – 2009-08-14 04:47 am

Quote from: Rick G. – 2009-08-14 12:01 am

That only gets you one notehead (unless the noteheads are different).

mea culpa - I tested it quickly and didn't spot the discrepancy - sorry 'bout that.

FWIW, on the topic of clarity, whether or not it's correct practice (haven't checked any text books to confirm this) I still think the G,G# in the same chord is ambiguous. Even with time to study the score there is the possibility of confusion, 2 note heads or not.

Fortunately something we don't see too often. I wonder if babycatcher can give us an example of the work that prompted the question in the first place?

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #12 – 2009-08-14 05:53 am

As a pianist, Rick, I guess you don't have to worry about this. On the piano, G^# and A^b are the same note. But they aren't the same note if you're a string player or a vocalist. String players and vocalists, having full portamento ability, tend to bend notes out of equal temperament and toward just intonation. In just intonation, a G^# is higher than an A^b. So it's important for a string player or a vocalist to know which one is actually meant, so they can tune the note to fit properly into the stream of the music - G^# to go up, A^b to go down. It can also be important for wind players, who tend to (consciously or unconsciously) lip a note in the direction the music is traveling.

Hope this makes a small amount of sense -

Bill

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #13 – 2009-08-14 06:07 am

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 2009-08-14 04:47 am

Fortunately something we don't see too often. I wonder if babycatcher can give us an example of the work that prompted the question in the first place?

Here's a Shostakovitch example I did back in May 2008. NWC2 has changed since then. I would do a few things differently today.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #14 – 2009-08-14 06:22 am

Hi Lawrie -

The tone clusters in Rick's example are one use of a sharp and natural on the same note at the same time. I've attached the first five measures of a lead sheet I prepared a few years ago for Meredith Willson's Lida Rose to show you another. In measure 4, the chord is a C7 (which has a B flat in it), but the tune has a B natural. Depending on how you realized the lead sheet, you could easily be playing the B flat and the B natural in the same octave at the same time.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #15 – 2009-08-14 06:42 am

Rick, Bill,
thanks guys.

Rick - that doesn't sound as crook as I would have expected from all those semitones... Looks nasty though

Bill - Good example too.

I'd still like to see babycatcher's one though...

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #16 – 2009-08-14 11:51 am

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #17 – 2009-08-14 01:13 pm

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #18 – 2009-08-14 01:27 pm

Or this:

Quote

!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:4th,Triplet=First|Pos:#1,5,6
|Chord|Dur:4th,Triplet|Pos:1,#5|Opts:Stem=Down|Dur2:4th|Pos2:n5
|Chord|Dur:4th,Triplet=End|Pos:1,n5,6
|Chord|Dur:Half|Pos:-2,1,3
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #19 – 2009-08-14 03:29 pm

That's interesting. If you add a sharped stem-up note to a natural stem-down note of the same pitch, the note heads line up. If you add a sharped stem-up note to a stem-down chord containing a natural note of the same pitch, the stems line up. The second is proper behavior, the first is not. This begins to look like a bug. NWC should be treating the two cases the same way.

At any rate, Grant, the secret here is to force the stem direction of the chord with the natural to be down and to force the stem direction of the note with the sharp to be up. If you don't like the look of that stem sticking up, you will still have to go to layers. NWC can set stem length to zero, but setting that attribute will affect the whole chord, not just the single stem-up note. You need to set stem length to zero on one layer and leave the stem on the other layer at its normal length. Looks rather messy in the editor, but it comes out fine in the printout.

Cheers,

Bill

Inserting Image

Reply #20 – 2009-08-15 02:24 am

Quote

I don't know how to post an image in this message

You can insert image by code.
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?action=help;page=post#bbcref

It requires image url address.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #21 – 2009-08-15 05:56 am

Thank you so much, Guys. Bill, you have solved my problem with very easy instructions - Thank you!
I think if I was playing this chord from sight for the first time, I would fumble over that chord. I'd be playing away thinking, what was that chord I was supposed to have played two bars back!
That's probably because I am not a great sight reader.
Once again, many thanks.
Regards,
Grant

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #22 – 2009-08-15 07:29 am

Quote

You can insert image by code.

Most times, I would prefer the image to be included as an attachment to the message. Then I don't have to see it if I don't want to. You can attach the image by selecting Additional Options to the left of the bottom of the message window.

Re: G and G# together?

Reply #23 – 2009-08-15 09:35 am

Quote

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Re: G and G# together?

Reply #24 – 2009-08-16 06:41 am

You've probably been using the program enough by now that you would find it useful to upgrade. It isn't expensive, and you wouldn't have to put up with the minor annoyances people who haven't upgraded face.