Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes (Read 21640 times) previous topic - next topic

NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

A test version of the NWC Viewer is attached. This new version uses a new technique for most line drawing in the editor as well as printing. This can help with print driver problems, as well as improve your results when printing or copying notation to PDF or other applications. If you are interested in trying this, simply use the attached setup program to install this test version onto your computer. You can post your results with this test version as replies to this topic.

Note: The new NWC Viewer 2.1 includes changes consistent with the new techniques that were tested here. You can download it from the NoteWorthy Composer Viewer page.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #1 –
The following areas are affected in this test:

  • staff lines
  • leger lines
  • note stems
  • beam segments between note stems
  • triplet brackets
  • bar lines
  • special endings

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #2 –
Well here's a strange one that I discovered through testing this - but on looking at the proper version, have found that it is the same there - but I'll report it anyway.

If you have a single stave file (say for a single instrument), then the vertical bar line at the very beginning does not show.

Now the really funny bit.  If you duplicate the save and layer it, the vertical bar line does show.

If you have something like a grand staff or some other combo - then this does not happen.

As I say - this is not as a result of this change - it happens with both real and test versions.

Rich.
Rich.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #3 –
The single staff print view is open ended. Since the Viewer shows a synthesized print view, you also see it there.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #4 –
Eric,

My only comment would be that I think that the beams come out slightly too wide. I think that they now turn out to be more than 50 % of the gap inbetween stave lines and to my eyes, it is just a tad too much.

All of the other items mentioned look fine.

Rich.
Rich.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Richard Woodroffe –
If you have a single stave [...] and layer it, the vertical bar line does show.
Has for years. One workaround:
Quote from: Rick G. –
Of course, now that the single visible staff is composed of layers, I needed to "whiteout" the silly sytemic bar line. I put this on a separate staff in hopes that someday this very annoying problem will be addressed.
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #6 –
Finally had a chance to have a quick look.  Noticed a couple of things in a very quick test:

On screen - no difference other than beams seem a touch thicker in the viewer - IMHO an improvement but only when compared side by side.  (Monitor is 22" flat panel running native resolution - 1680*1050)

PDF - on screen
  • Barlines seem thicker in viewer generated PDF - good
  • Note stems seem thinner in viewer generated PDF - bad
  • Staff lines seem "finer" and more consistent in viewer generated PDF - consistency is an improvement, "finer" lines is not
  • Beams seem to locate better and have a more consistent thickness in viewer generated PDF - good

Printed output from PDF's - barlines are bolder (good), I noticed no other difference.

Printed output from viewer and editor - barlines seem bolder (good), I noticed no other difference.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #7 –
Thanks Lawrie. The screen is the best way to note the changes, since the techniques are so different. At printer resolutions, subtle changes are more difficult to detect.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #8 –
Attachments are screen caps from a PostScript Driver @ 1024dpi.

Here the current viewer drew the bottom staff line slimmer than the other staff lines.
This seems to be corrected in the test viewer, which also features a fatter barline.

Rounding the notestem ends in the test viewer is a big improvement. It makes the output look less mechanical.

Both viewers leave staff line "stubble" after the final barline. IMO, this looks bad.

The test viewer leaves "stubble" before the systemic barline. The beam is shifted slightly too far to the right. The left side of the beam seems to be a hair too low. Perhaps I ask too much, but the beam should start/end at the center of the stem. If the vertical start/end is just right, beams can benefit from the rounded stem ends.

My druthers would be to have an option to make the staff lines ~150% thicker. I email TIFF files to associates and I often observe that their printing software has reduced the image a bit, sometimes failing to print a staff line.

Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #9 –
Rick's example is one of the reasons why NWC originally used micro-detail line drawing techniques. It seems that print/screen drivers still tend to differ in the micro-level details of line endpoints. At high printer resolutions, singe pixel differences become negligible, but are much more obvious when you increase the pen widths.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #10 –
A new version is attached. It now comes with the complete installer.
 

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #11 –
I am very new to the application but picking up rather quickly...I have been reading through the posts and have found that I am having the same issues. I did download the NW viewer, then replaced it with the NW Viewer test. The test version printed one of my scores and all of the staffs. However, when I opened and printed the second one, it did not print the last staff line. You stated in your post: "A new version is attached. It now comes with the complete installer." I could not find an attachment. I am willing to try anything to get this to work. It could be my printer??? Don't know...HP C5240 All-In-One...may be the culprit. I am still trying different things to see if it will work.


Thank You!

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #12 –
The attachment is at the top of the topic.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #13 –
Since the subject is better printing, I'd like to add a few more issues that need to be addressed.
If I set margins to the printable area for my printer:

1) Page numbers are set too high. Only the bottom row of pixels on the page numbers gets printed. Page numbers need to be moved down by at least the 'X-height' of the font.

2) The copyright is set too low. All the descenders get cut off.

3) Measure numbers get cut off on the left, especially when > 99 or boxed or circled. It seems that NWC centers measure numbers on the systemic barline. This is less than optimal.

4) Titles are sometimes set too low, causing a system to be pushed to the next page. This is the least of the problems and may be the hardest to solve.

IMO, NWC should be smart enough to know the extents of what it is printing and stay within the printable area.

The simple user fix is to increase the margins. But this varies with staff types and font sizes.

Is it too much for a user to ask that, if margins are set to the printable area, everything prints?

/soapbox

Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #14 –
Does it make a difference as to which type of printer you have, Rick? 

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #15 –
Quote from: David Palmquist –
Does it make a difference as to which type of printer you have, Rick? 
I've tried a dot-matrix, an ink-jet and a postscript.

NWC puts the page number baseline on the top margin and the last copyright line baseline on the bottom margin.
It is smart enough to know that it needs to 'throw a line feed' before printing the Title, but a full line feed is a bit much for most titles. This costs about 1/4 inch of the page height that I can put to better use if these problems were fixed.

The staves are aligned to the left margin and measure numbers are centered on the systemic barline (which is hidden for a single staff.)

I can see now why NWC puts the measure numbers where it does. The combination of a single staff, Treble clef and circled measure numbers is problematic.

The measure numbering is more an annoyance to me rather than a problem. I usually have an Orchestral bracket or a brace and use plain measure numbers. These combinations stay inside the margins until the measure exceeds 99.

In Print Preview, I can see when measure numbers will be cut off, but NWC seems to do some finagling with the height of the Print Preview window such that what you see there is not what happens on the printed page.

Overall, I think it is a bug for a program to draw outside the user's margins. In addition to the problems above, text that is centered or left at a bar that breaks the system should go to the next system or be made to fit inside the right margin of the current system.

Edit: After more investigation, I find that the vertical position of the title is set to 'the top margin' and the page numbers are set to 'the top margin + 1 pixel'. It is the difference in font sizes that make the title print below the page numbers. If I set 'Page Title Text' and 'Page Small Text' to the same font size, say 18pt, and change page setup to print Title Info and page number on the first page, the page number prints out one pixel lower than the title.

Since titles usually have a much larger size than page numbers, the unfortunate result is that significant and unpredictable space is wasted.
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #16 –
G'day Rick,
Quote from: Rick G. –
Overall, I think it is a bug for a program to draw outside the user's margins. In addition to the problems above, text that is centered or left at a bar that breaks the system should go to the next system or be made to fit inside the right margin of the current system.

Hmm, automatically perhaps, but I'd hate to lose the ability to move things like rests off the page...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #17 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
I'd hate to lose the ability to move things like rests off the page...
As would I, but moving rests off page is exploiting a bug.
The need is now clearly established. Some official support would be most welcome.

For example, in this clip, it would be useful if NWC would end the slur on the note, rather than the rest.
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Note|Dur:4th,Slur|Pos:0
|RestChord|Dur:4th|Opts:Stem=Up,VertOffset=15|Dur2:4th|Pos2:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Registered user since 1996

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #18 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
As would I, but moving rests off page is exploiting a bug.
The need is now clearly established. Some official support would be most welcome.
Yup!

Quote
For example, in this clip, it would be useful if NWC would end the slur on the note, rather than the rest.

Comes back to my request of (https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=6185) some time ago - I would love handles on these lines to allow override of automatic placement - at least the vertical aspect anyhow...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #19 –
Amen re handles!

Re measure numbers, etc., I seldom use that feature because when you print parts the measure number only shows at the beginning of each system.  With no two parts necessarily having the same number of measures per system, one per line isn't terribly useful as a rehearsal aid.  I would like to see them available as uncircled, unboxed small numerals, perhaps font size 4 or 6, that would print at every (visible) bar line, just above the staff.  With an override to turn it off on specific bar lines where the number would get in the way of the notation.  

I don't really feel comfortable working with margin settings in NWC2.  I guess I didn't really think the settings were too useful way back in version 1 days, and I doubt if I've tried to manipulate them since...  

<<< much later note:  instead of font size 4 or 6, I now say font size 6.  I struggled to read bar numbers that were size 4 or so at band the other night, in a score issued by a mainstream publisher >>>

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #20 –

Hello everyone. Nice to meet you all.

pret personnel

Re: NWC Viewer Test Edition for Staff Line Drawing Changes

Reply #21 –
At higher, but still useful zoom levels, the upstems are aligned at bit too far to the left. Changing the print driver doesn't help. Attachment was produced with WinXP (Home Edition).
Registered user since 1996