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Topic: Another slur problem (Read 9301 times) previous topic - next topic

Another slur problem

The time value of the note where a slur ends seems to have an unwanted effect on where the slur starts, if the slur direction is opposite to default (as usually in four-part vocal scores). In the first bar of the attached example the slur behaves correctly, ending on a half note. In bar 3 the slur beginning shifts, because the slur ends on a whole note. Can you reproduce this, or is something wrong with my system?

I am sorry if this has been discussed before. In this case, I would appreciate if you could point me to that discussion.

Best wishes for Christmas
--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #1 –
New one. Has nothing to do with duration. The problem is stem visibility:
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:Common
|Key|Signature:C
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:3|Opts:Slur=Downward
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:1|Opts:StemLength=0
|Rest|Dur:Half|Opts:Stem=Down
|Bar|Style:Double
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
I can't think of a reason why the start position of a slur should be affected by subsequent notes, except that once the curvature is determined and found to be too extreme, the endpoints might be moved to make it less extreme, but that is clearly not the case here.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
New one. Has nothing to do with duration. The problem is stem visibility:I can't think of a reason...

Rick, thanks for pointing out the root cause. I agree fully with your reasoning.

This problem is bad news for those using NWC for simple 4-part vocal scores, where slurs often end on whole notes. I hope that there is an easy workaround for this.

NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine
 

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #3 –
The absence of a stem obstruction on the receiving end of a slur permits the origin of the slur to start near the notehead of a stem down note. Put another way, the absence of stem obstructions on both the origin and termination point of a slur allows the slur to be drawn from the notehead positions.

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #4 –
Quote from: Christian Carlsson –
I hope that there is an easy workaround for this.
I guess it depends on your definition of easy. Try:
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Bar|Style:Double
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:0z^|Opts:Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:0z,3|Opts:Slur=Downward,StemLength=4
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:2
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Whole,Grace|Pos:-1z^|Opts:Muted|Visibility:Never
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1z,1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

IMO, slurs starting/ending near the notehead from the stem side do not look as good as slurs starting/ending near the center of the stem. See attached graphic (which uses 3 staves).
Registered user since 1996

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #5 –
Thank you, Rick.
I like your solution, it looks really good, and it does not require additional staves. It seems to give control over start and end position of the slurs. I am not very familiar with editing nwctext files, but I understand that you have built chords with muted invisible grace notes. Can all this be achieved using the normal user interface?
--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #6 –
It seems that the same effect that Rick's solution gives can be achieved with slightly less code.
Quote
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Chord|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:0z,3|Opts:Slur=Downward,StemLength=4
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:2
|Bar
|Chord|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1z,1
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End

Thanks for raising my awareness of nwctext.
--Christan
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #7 –
Quote from: Christian Carlsson –
It seems that the same effect that Rick's solution gives can be achieved with slightly less code.
Sure, if you don't care about how it sounds.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #8 –
Yes, Rick, you are right, now I see that I need to turn off the extra invisible notes in the chords with the muted grace notes. I also see how it is possible to do this using the normal NWC user interface. Thanks for making me study this in detail, it will be useful.
--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
I can't think of a reason why the start position of a slur should be affected by subsequent notes
Quote from: NoteWorthy Online –
the absence of stem obstructions on both the origin and termination point of a slur allows the slur to be drawn from the notehead positions.
I stand corrected.

IMO, when this happens, the slur is too close to the notehead. In normal cases, the slur starts/ends two vertical positions above/below the stem/notehead. In NWC's "seek the notehead" scenario, the slurs are a full vertical position closer. My druthers would be to seek the center of the stem, but one vertical position is too close.

Here's a bug and some anomalies:
Code: (nwc) [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|TimeSig|Signature:3/2
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:-5|Opts:Slur=Upward
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1|Color:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:2
|Note|Dur:Whole|Pos:-1|Color:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:1
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:0
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:-1|Color:1
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:4
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Note|Dur:Half,Slur|Pos:-4
|Rest|Dur:Whole
|Bar
|Rest|Dur:Whole,Slur
|Note|Dur:Half|Pos:0
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
If you select each of the red notes and toggle Stem Down, the slur changes. It shouldn't. Measure 1 is a bug, the other two are just annoying (and, I suspect related to the discussion above).
In measure 4, select the Rest, and use the +/- keys to cycle duration. The slur bounces around wildy. Contrast this with measure 5, which is much more predictable. In measure 6 the slur even changes direction as the Rest duration is cycled!

Of course, slurs starting or ending on rests are rare.

A suggestion: currently, slurs usually start/end 2 vertical positions above/below the notehead/stem. This means that when they start/end in the staff line area, half the time they start/end on a staff line. This looks less than ideal. If this was changed to 1 2/3 vertical positions, they would never start or end on a staff line, yielding a cleaner appearance.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Christian Carlsson –
Can all this be achieved using the normal user interface?
Yes, however you really should experiment with copying things to the clipboard and pasting it into your favorite text editor. (Hint: don't copy a just a single item - the format is different and IMO, confusing). Unlike us window folk, your default text editor probably has all kinds of nifty search & replace features.

If you have managed to get NWC running on Unix, you have solved tougher problems than this :)

BTW, sorry about "hijacking" you thread for my slurs about slurs.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Rick G. –
...you really should experiment with copying things to the clipboard and pasting it into your favorite text editor. Unlike us window folk, your default text editor probably has all kinds of nifty search & replace features.
Yes, this was a good lesson that motivated to do exactly what you suggest. And yes, Linux has good tools for editing text files.

Quote from: Rick G. –
If you have managed to get NWC running on Unix, you have solved tougher problems than this :)
Setting up NWC on recent Linux distributions is very straightforward. I have tried it out on several distributions without any problems. It takes just a few moments to set everything up. The program works OOB on WINE, and midi sound set-up requires just a few easy steps, for which good tutorials exist.

Quote from: Rick G. –
...sorry about "hijacking" you thread....
I think these things are related, and follow the discussion with great interest.. :)

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #12 –
Further to the slur issue, the attached file shows different behaviour depending on stem direction. The dotted note  and its position above the system probably make it difficult to use the technique that Rick came up with to improve the slur on the upper system. As this situation seems to occur quite often in my work with vocal scores, further ideas would be very welcome.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #13 –
This one needs another staff.

You will notice that the lower voice slur in your example starts too far to the left. I fixed that by flipping the stem direction.

IMO, if NWC2 is going to continue to have bad defaults for slurs, it needs to incorporate some better ways to overcome them. Such as options to:
  • hide slurs, ties and augmentation dots
  • apply dynamics, dynamic variations and playing styles to the MIDI channel, not just the staff.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Another slur problem

Reply #14 –
Thanks again, Rick.

I thought that another staff would be required, but was hoping for something simpler. It is really a shame that another staff has to be introduced just to avoid the extra dot that would have been introduced using the previous method. I strongly support your requirement for better tools for dealing with bad slur defaults.

--Christian
NWC on Ubuntu Linux/Wine