Glissando on a Trombone

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Glissando on a Trombone

2008-09-11 11:09 am

I know how to make a piano or a harp play a glissando BUT for a trombone on NWC2? A Glissando on a Trombone is smooth and it has a nice legatissimo effect, etc. So is there a solution to this?

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #1 – 2008-09-11 11:41 am

You can only get 2 tones - almost enough to be realistic...

For the visual effect you need to use text entries - there are some useful characters in Boxmarks and my *Dings suites available from the Scripto http://nwc-scriptorium.org/

For the audio effect you need to use a Multi Point Controller:
Select "Pitch Bend"
-8192 to +8191 gives a range of 2 tones

Check the following discussions etc.:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=6294.0
http://www.noteworthysoftware.com/nwcforum/search.php?type=subject&term=glissand
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=771.0

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #2 – 2008-09-11 01:09 pm

In theory you have the possibility to change the operating range of the pitch bend.
The problem is that, as far as I know, you can not do it from inside NWC.
So bad NWC doesn't allow insertion of special events like, for example, GM2 on or GS on or XG on.

Another possibility is to use the MPC portamento, provided that your sound device supports it; my keyboard doesn't!

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #3 – 2008-09-13 06:03 am

I see, Lawrie. But the peice I'm writing consist a glissando that starts from D flat to A flat (5th above Db). I already know that the pitch bend can make a sound go one tone up, then how do you make it a 5th above or an Octave-Glissando?

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #4 – 2008-09-13 06:57 am

Quote from: Kristopher – 2008-09-13 06:03 am

I see, Lawrie. But the peice I'm writing consist a glissando that starts from D flat to A flat (5th above Db). I already know that the pitch bend can make a sound go one tone up, then how do you make it a 5th above or an Octave-Glissando?

Is this to be an "imaginary" piece or something a real trombone can perform? (I actually play trombone so this is from experience, not simply theory)

Also, are you talking concert pitch or have you transposed the trombone similarly to a trumpet?

These are important considerations, a real Bb Tenor trombone can only gliss 6 semitones - position 7 to 1 or 1 to 7.

From the table below, a "partial" is a harmonic. The lowest "1st position" or "open" note I can play (ignoring the pedal or fundemental) is a concert Bb an octave below middle C - the 2nd partial. The fundamental is the real 1st partial or harmonic. What I have below is a 'traditional" view starting on the true 2nd partial - in reality the 7th listed partial is the 8th - the real 7th is somewhat out of tune (1st pos is a flat concert C Ab) and brass players are usually taught to play "around" it...

Again, from the table the lowest to highest gliss that you can play is (speaking concert) E to Bb, the next range is B to F, then E to Bb again, next is Ab to D, another B to F and finally a last E to Bb. This ignores those players that can play beyond the 7th partial where you can do lots of other nest tricks just on the lip...

So you can see a true Db to Ab gliss is impossible on just the slide as there must be a partial change part way through.

Within NWC you can only pitch bend 2 tones (1 tone below to 1 tone above). One of the links I provided earlier leads to a thread that references a gliss.nwc example file by Fred Nachbaur which shows a technique to extend this. See if you can find it if you really need more than 2 tones but be warned, it only works reliably on some sound cards.

Now, speaking concert pitch:

Partial/Valves	0	2	1	1+2	2+3	1+3	1+2+3
Partial/Pos	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th
2nd	Bb	A	Ab	G	Gb	F	E
3rd	F	E	Eb	D	Db	C	B
4th	Bb	A	Ab	G	Gb	F	E
5th	D	Db	C	B	Bb	A	Ab
6th	F	E	Eb	D	Db	C	B
7th	Bb	A	Ab	G	Gb	F	E

Or, Transposed ala trumpet:

Partial/Valves	0	2	1	1+2	2+3	1+3	1+2+3
Partial/Pos	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th
2nd	C	B	Bb	A	Ab	G	Gb
3rd	G	Gb	F	E	Eb	D	Db
4th	C	B	Bb	A	Ab	G	Gb
5th	E	Eb	D	Db	C	B	Bb
6th	G	Gb	F	E	Eb	D	Db
7th	C	B	Bb	A	Ab	G	Gb

Slide pos to valve:

Position	Valves
1st	0
2nd	2
3rd	1
4th	1+2 or 3
5th	2+3
6th	1+3
7th	1+2+3

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #5 – 2008-09-13 07:53 am

Kristopher:-

The Pitch Bend Range can be extended in MIDI using RPN Controller 100 and Data Controller 6.
I don't think that these Controllers are available in the list of Multi-point controllers in NoteWorthy.

But if you have a sequencer you can add the controllers in the Event List.

On the Channel where you want to increase the Pitch Bend range.
Enter CC100 with a value of 0 (zero)
Followed by CC6 with a value of 12 (semitones) to give a total range of -12 to +12 semitones.

Using the Pitch Wheel:-
The range is - 8192 to +8192 so each semitone represents 683 (approx) Pitch Wheel steps when the range is +-12 semitones..
A fifth (7 semitones) is approx. 4780 Pitch Wheel units.
(Enter a Pitch Wheel sweep up or down of 4780 units).

To turn off the extended range:
Enter CC100 with a value of 0.
Followed by CC6 with a value of 127 (or simply 2 to return to normal).

Barry Graham
Melbourne, Australia

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #6 – 2008-09-13 12:31 pm

This file: gliss.nwc was mentioned in a referenced thread earlier. It is an example of how to do a long smoothe glissando, by Fred Nachbaur. You will need to inspect the hidden staves to see how it is done. It can be found in the "Helpful Files" section of the Scriptorium.

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #7 – 2008-09-13 01:34 pm

Lawrie, I don't play a trombone but everything you wrote, made me learn a new thing in Trombones. I commonly write trombones in C but Bb... not so often. But thanks. I'm gonna correct that mistake!

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #8 – 2008-09-13 02:33 pm

G'day Kristopher,

Quote from: Kristopher – 2008-09-13 01:34 pm

Lawrie, I don't play a trombone but everything you wrote, made me learn a new thing in Trombones. I commonly write trombones in C but Bb... not so often. But thanks. I'm gonna correct that mistake!

Don't be in too big a hurry to change your habits mate. For orchestral and jazz work the trombone is considered a non-transposing instrument. I.E. you write in concert pitch - bass clef. This is correct. Don't let the fact that the overtone sequence is based on a Bb throw you.

The reason that I gave the transposed alternative is related to brass band stuff. Commonly in British and British heritage brass bands like in Australia ALL instruments are written as transposed instruments in treble clef. This includes everything from the BBb Bass (tuba) right up to the Eb Soprano cornet. The transposition ignores octaves. This way, any player can move to any instrument (provided their lip allows) without having to relearn how to read their music, or more importantly their fingering.

To give an example, this kind of transposition is common to saxophones. Bari to Soprano, they're all written in transposed treble.

I just wanted to be sure you understood what I was trying to convey with respect to the trombones available ranges on the slide. This will help you to avoid impossible directives to your trombone players.

Please find attached an NWC2 and an NWC1 file showing available ranges and pure NWC implementations of Glisses on the straight Tenor Trombone.

Please note that tenor trombones with an 'F' attachment can lower the entire gliss range by a 4th at each partial (Both ends of the range are lowered, not just the lowest note!). Bass Trombones used to be in 'G' but this is uncommon these days. Now Bass Trombones are usually large bore Bb trombones equipped with 1 or 2 "rotor's" (1 is usually an 'F' attachment and the other is variable with manufacturers often giving the buyer a choice. The second attachment can be independent or dependent on the 1st attachment being operated)

<edits> in italics

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #9 – 2008-09-15 09:59 am

As I said before, I can not be more detailed about the portamento trick because neither my keyboard nor my sound driver support it. Anyone can try the idea?

Lawrie:

Quote

orchestral and jazz work the trombone is considered a non-transposing instrument

I learned this recently when I had to play with a jazz trombonist and I was automatically transposing the score accompanying him on keyboards. I'm so used to trumpet and clarinet...

Barry:

Quote

Enter CC100 with a value of 0 (zero)

So you're trusting CC101 already being 0!

Quote

Followed by CC6 with a value of 12 (semitones) to give a total range of -12 to +12 semitones.

Why not to set 7 semitones and then use the full wheel range?

N.B. Data Controller 6 (Corse Data Entry) is indeed accessible in NWC (it's called Data Entry MSB) but it's almost useless without access to RPN e NRPN controllers (MSB-LSB) and possbly Data Entry LSB too.
Why not include these "controllers" in the list, being that it should be very simple and Data Entry MSB is already there?
Eric?

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #10 – 2008-09-15 01:10 pm

G'day Flurmy,

Quote from: Flurmy – 2008-09-15 09:59 am

As I said before, I can not be more detailed about the portamento trick because neither my keyboard nor my sound driver support it. Anyone can try the idea?

NWC doesn't implement the required commands...

Quote

N.B. Data Controller 6 (Corse Data Entry) is indeed accessible in NWC (it's called Data Entry MSB) but it's almost useless without access to RPN e NRPN controllers (MSB-LSB) and possbly Data Entry LSB too.
Why not include these "controllers" in the list, being that it should be very simple and Data Entry MSB is already there?
Eric?

We asked for this quite some time ago - perhaps it'll appear in 2.1, along with a portamento implementation? hint, hint

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #11 – 2008-09-15 01:42 pm

Lawrie:

Quote

NWC doesn't implement the required commands...

What?
So what's "Portamento time" controller for?
Isn't simply a matter of playing e.g. a C, setting the portamento to the desired time, playing a G then, after a while resetting portamento to 0?
Did a miss something?
Ok, it's tricky to set the desired times, but once you got them you're done.

At least in the mini Moog, things work that way... :-)

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #12 – 2008-09-15 02:00 pm

I'll have to check, but I'm pretty sure you need another controller to actually turn portamento on and off...

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #13 – 2008-09-15 02:49 pm

Silly me!

Lawrie, you're right: there is controller 65: Portamento On/Off, and this one is not supported by NWC.
Oh, why not?

By the way: portamento = 0 is the slowest rate!

And even more: the minimoog too has the portamento switch (available as pedal too).
I was thinking about the wheels that are the usual pitch bending and modulation.

So much for my memory...

Re: Glissando on a Trombone

Reply #14 – 2008-09-18 11:25 pm

G'day Kristopher,
I notice you been on the forum s bit since I posted here. I was wondering if it helped at all?