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Topic: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings (Read 9282 times) previous topic - next topic

suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

I am working on a wind quintet that begins with a crescendo from mf to f on a flute note that is held for five counts. I know how to handle this, of course: set the initial staff volume low enough to handle the difference between mf and f (110 or lower), then use an MPC to raise the volume gradually over the length of the held note. However, this brings up two questions:

  • Why is the initial staff volume set at the top of the range? and,
  • Why, if the initial staff volume is set at 127, is the initial MPC volume set at 64?

It seems to me that the default staff volume should be set low enough to provide some headroom for operations such as the crescendo I've just described. It also seems that, whatever the initial staff volume is, the initial MPC volume should match it. In fact, whenever you insert a volume MPC, the initial volume should be picked up from the current volume. This would save half the work of inserting the MPC.

Just a thought....for future consideration....

Bill

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #1 –
The defaults are what they are due to historical considerations.

Your suggestion about default starting MPC volume is interesting, but perhaps difficult to implement in the current scheme.

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #2 –
William:

You might also consider using CC11 (Expression) as your dynamic variation and leave Volume for track balance.

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #3 –
Thanks for your quick response, Eric. I understand the potential difficulties of having the volume MPC pick up its initial value from the current volume of the staff. How about simply changing the defaults from 64 to 127? Given that the default staff volume is also 127, that would be correct about half the time.

Barry, I've tried using the expression MPC. Don't know if it's my sound card or if it's just me, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on my machine. I do know (or at least have heard) that it's a MIDI parameter that isn't always supported by sound cards. That means it isn't the best possible choice for changing dynamics on a held note, especially if you expect to post the MIDI on the Web or otherwise share it with other users.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #4 –
A quick way to have NWC always begin a new score with your own preferences is to save the initial settings as a template.  One could make a template for any ensemble, wind quintet being your current need, with staff volume, pan, MIDI instrument (could also be as an inserted Instrument patch),  MPCs with initial settings for Expression, Reverb, Chorus or what-have-you, and so on.  As soon as you begin a new score from a template, go to File-Save As and save as the name of your new piece to leave your template undisturbed.  Just one more of the great possibilities of NWC over the "big boys"!

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #5 –
A couple of other thoughts:

You could also save your favorite MPC settings in a separate NWC file with a text expression next to each one giving details of the contoller and the settings.  Then keep the file open while working on your piece and copy and paste the desired MPCs from your settings file to the new piece.  Hmm, I think I'll make a settings file myself and save myself some of the work I've been doing!

Also, what is your sound card and synth and on what operating system and platform?  I know synths that support Aftertouch, for instance, are rare, but that's a shame that yours doesn't seem to support Expression.  I'd feel crippled without it!

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #6 –
I appreciate the suggestions, Milton, but the point isn't that I don't have a satisfactory way to create volume changes on held notes. I do.

The point is that the current defaults for the volume MPC are not the same as the defaults for the staff volume. This adds unnecessary work for most users, who presumably will be either beginning or ending a volume change with the default staff volume most of the time. Matching up the staff and MPC defaults would mean that the default value of the MPC usually could be used for at least one controller value. Now, it usually can't.

Not a cry for help....just a suggestion to improve the product....

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #7 –
Bill said:-

Quote
Don't know if it's my sound card or if it's just me, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on my machine.

O.K. What is your sound card?

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #8 –
Barry, please read the post directly above yours. I don't have a problem that needs fixing.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #9 –
Bill, I've been using NoteWorthy for about eight years now and I'm not quite sure I entirely agree with all that you said in your original post. I'm a bit torn between my contradicting opinions now.

You said:
    * Why, if the initial staff volume is set at 127, is the initial MPC volume set at 64?

I totally agree with you here. It would make much more sense to me to have the default MPC volume set at 127. But that's only because the initial staff volume is set at 127.

At the same time I start to think of dynamics. The default dynamic is mp (when you go to insert one), which I think is good. But if you don't insert any dynamic markings, the playback is fff (which is the same as saying the initial staff volume is set at 127). Why is this? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the initial staff volume set to 60 (which is mp) since the default dynamic is mp? I've had lots of experiences when I've wanted just see what something would sound like and it blasts out of my headphones at fff just because I forgot to put a dynamic marking in! (Maybe this idea would make it easier to work with your crescendos ... I dunno just an idea)

But then part of me disagrees with everything I've just said in the previous paragraph. Because if I insert a forte, I'd want the velocity to be 90 (or 92 or something). But if the initial staff volume is set at 60 and I insert a forte, the final velocity is gonna be about 45 right? (I figure if 60 is about half of 127, the playback will be about half of forte) So that'd just make it confusing. As I said, if I insert a forte, I'd want the velocity to be 90, so that'd mean the initial staff volume would have to be 127.

Or maybe I'm just confusing myself! Maybe it's just better to make the initial MPC volume set at 127 and be done with it!

So that's what I'm wrestling with at the moment.
Feel free to join me in my wrestle!

Leigh

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #10 –
Thanks for the comments, Leigh. Nice to be back on topic. ;-)

Actually, the default note velocity (if you haven't set a dynamic) is 110, which puts it just slightly above ff. See a more complete discussion here.

But I agree with you re the built-in conflict between a lower staff volume and a higher dynamic level. If the default staff volume were to be lowered from 127, I think I would lean more toward making it 92 (the equivalent of f). That seems sufficiently high, but it still leaves about 1/4 of the total dynamic range as headroom to go into for crescendos. And you can always turn the volume knob up....

The bigger issue, as you indicate, is the inconsistency between the default staff volume and the default settings in the volume MPC.

Cheers,

Bill

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #11 –
Thanks for clearing that up Bill, I can see my info wasn't entirely correct. But now I totally agree with you :-)

Leigh

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #12 –
Bill said:
Quote
Barry, please read the post directly above yours. I don't have a problem that needs fixing.

I didn't have a problem with your answer either.
But I am still curious about which sound cards do not repond to Expression.

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #13 –
Barry,

I have a "Hercules Games Theater 7.1" sound card that does respond to Expression MPCs with both NWC1.75 and NWC2.  This is quite a reasonable sound card with a Rack for connecting several analog and digital inputs and outputs and surround speakers, but with not a very good hardware synth.  Unfortunately I have discovered it will only accept *.dls soundfonts, not *.cls!

I was talked into it by one of the local Hawthorn cowboys 5 years ago, when I knew even less about MIDI business than I do now!

Those like me who distribute Training Aids for choral use, with one staff emphasised for each choir Section,
find the Expression MPC a real godsend.  Before I was awakened by this forum to the existence of these, it was quite a chore arranging playback of each long held note with a dynamic variation using Volume mpcs, because differnt volumes must be set for the "emphasised" and "un-emphasised" staves, so staff volume needed to be re-set after each dynamic variation.  This is not necessary if the <staff volume> is used for de-emphasis of the whole staff, while the <dynamic variation> of held notes is taken care of by the Expression MPC.

Cheers,

Bill.

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #14 –
I rather like the way the Instrument Change determines its defaults. It uses the values that are in effect at the insertion point. This is reasonable, and a handy diagnostic.

For Tempo, the routine would need to account for all staves. For other MPC's, the routine would need to account for all staves sharing the same MIDI channel. Depending on how NWC2 is organized, this implementation might be trivial, or nearly impossible.

If the volume has not yet been set, 100 could be used. This is what my SBAWE32 uses when no volume controller messages are sent. The attachment will let you test your setup. Read the Info section in the attachment.
Registered user since 1996

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #15 –
Loading the file into NWC2 plays it as you suggest, but replaying it (with or without an F6 reset) then plays the first note at Vol=127, so it doesn't seem that the initial soundcard conditions can actually be relied on.

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #16 –
Quote from: Peter Edwards –
it doesn't seem that the initial soundcard conditions can actually be relied on.
http://www.midi.org/about-midi/rp15.shtml
says that Expression should be reset to 127, but Volume and Pan should not be changed.
I can only conclude that my soundcard does not follow the spec for Volume. It also resets Pan to 64.

In light of this, I will be changing my templates to insure that known values for Volume and Pan are sent to each channel. 

The default NWC2 templates currently set Volume to 127 and Pan to 64. Now I see why :(
Registered user since 1996

Re: suggestion re MPCs and initial staff settings

Reply #17 –
Sorry to have been silent for a while. Busy weekend.

Barry, you'll note that in my first reply re the expression controller I said "dunno if it's my soundcard or me." OK - it's me. I simply never use it. Thanks to Bill Denholm's post, I now understand why others might prefer it, but for my purposes, changing the volume controller has always worked well. And there are a few MIDI setups that don't have expression controllers. I found one (SoundEngine, from 1994) with a little bit of online searching: more searching would probably turn up others. They may all be legacy setups, but if someone is using one, MIDI playback that depends on the expression controller won't work, or at least will sound wrong. So, while there are reasons to use expression controllers, there are reasons not to as well.

Just for the record, I solved my problem (held note crescendo from mp to mf on the first note of the piece) by placing an mf instead of an mp at the head of the crescendo, dropping the staff volume immediately by the difference between mf and mp (using an absolute MPC), then raising it slowly back over the five held beats of the note (using a linear sweep MPC). I did this on a separate playback staff, but it could be done using invisible dynamics as well. And I can think of several other ways to handle it, none of them wrong. It's nice to have all these options, even if the one I would prefer (a lower default staff volume) isn't available.

Rick and Peter, thanks for the exchange re how soundcards reset their parameters. You've helped explain why the lower default staff volume isn't available. I'd still like to see the default MPC volume settings match the default staff volume. That would be philosophically neater, if nothing else (and actually it would be a lot else).

Thanks to all,

Bill