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wish list - radio buttons

Would it be possible for NWC2 to use radio buttons instead of drop-down menus for some of the more commonly-used commands? I'm thinking particularly of "show on printed page" and the direction of slurs and ties. Each of these has a limited set of options, and lots of blank space in their dialog boxes for showing buttons. I use these three commands a lot, and having buttons instead of drop-down menus would save me a keystroke each time.

I haven't done any programming for a long time, but I seem to recall that the OOP front end I used to be familiar with let you choose "radio buttons" or "drop-down menu" and then made the necessary code changes automatically, so it should be a no-brainer to implement.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #1 –
Although I don't work at NWC, I would infer from what I know that NWC is written in a medium-level language.  In this type, it would most likely be quite difficult to change something that trivial.
About whether or not they should be used, there are many users that automatically use the drop-down menus.  Having radio buttons would slow these people down.
I'm expecting many people to start a lengthy debate.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #2 –
G'day William,
what an interesting thought...

I think I like the radio button idea...  It would take up a little more space that the drop down list but the number of options (3) in your example locations is just about right.  IMHO Much more than 3 radio buttons starts to become a space waster but they are definitely easier to use that drop downs in this kind of application.

Given that NWC2 is still beta, I think that provided the exercise isn't too onerous, a little experimentation could be in order.  If it isn't successful it could always be changed back...

I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #3 –
I've used some programs in which radio buttons could be used only with the mouse.  I hate this.  If the radio buttons could be activated with the keyboard, then that would be fine.  I do not like being forced into using the mouse (Can you say "Carpal Tunnel Syndrome?").

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #4 –
G'day Kevin,
good point, mate.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #5 –
I, too, like the idea of some buttons, provided they're easy to use and can be easily accessed from the keyboard.  I don't use the mouse for note entry, so it's intuitive for me to hit the various two or three key commands, with the occasional use of the mouse if the cursor doesn't have to be moved all the way across the screen to hit one of the icons in the toolbars. 

 

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #6 –
In most (maybe all) of the software I've seen with radio buttons, you can move among the buttons with the tab and shift-tab keys (sometimes also the arrow keys), so people who use only the keyboard should be OK. But Lawrie is right - they shouldn't be used for places where there are more than three choices.

I use the keyboard to enter notes, too, but I find it easier to reach for the mouse - actually a trackball, in my case - to activate the menus. As for carpal tunnel, yeah, that's a problem. That's why I want the radio buttons, because those extra mouse-button pushes really add up. The trackball and a wrist brace help, but they don't get rid of the problem completely.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #7 –
Quote
In most (maybe all) of the software I've seen with radio buttons, you can move among the buttons with the tab and shift-tab keys

I'd hate to have to relearn the hot-key commands for insert bar line (tab) or File Info (shift-tab), but we've had key reassignments before.  I could live with it.

By the way, William, you should post your suggestion to the wish list.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #8 –
What I do not quite understand is: how would radio buttons save keystrokes?
This is what I do if I do not want something to show up on the printed page.
Highlight (using the cursor keys and the Shift key)
Alt-Enter
go to Visibility-tab, using Ctrl-PgDn if this tab is not yet selected
and I type "N" <enter>

Next item, highlight, Alt-Enter, N, Enter.
How are you going to shorten this using radio buttons?

cheers,
Rob.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #9 –
... the same applies to slurs and ties, of course.
You want the slur to go up?
Highlight, Alt-Enter, Alt-S, U, Enter. Works like a charm.

And then, if you really use these a lot, it is likely that you want to apply "Slurs direction = Up" & "Ties direction = Up" for a whole staff. Well, enter the whole staff, mark the staff, and do it all at once!

Is this what you want? If yes, how many keystrokes per week did I just save you?

cheers,
Rob.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #10 –
I guess I should have said "mouse button pushes." The drill, if you're using the mouse, is highlight, right-click to bring up the context menu, click on "properties", click on the "visibility" tab (if it's not already chosen), click on the "show on printed page" drop-down menu to bring it up, then click on "Never." With radio buttons, clicking on the drop-down menu wouldn't be necessary, eliminating one mouse-button push. My guess is that it wouldn't change a thing for you keyboard people. And by the way, David, when you're in a dialogue box in NWC2, the tab key already shifts you from field to field rather than inserting a barline in your music. Barline insertion via tab wouldn't be affected.

As for selecting the whole staff for slur/tie up or down: sometimes I want the default, sometimes not. Depends on the place in the music. I've tried changing the whole staff, but then I have to change about half of the slurs and/or ties back. Works out to about the same effort either way. I'd be interested in hearing about others' experiences along these lines (especially other mouse users).
 

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #11 –
What we really need is not a symbol or some klicks less. Just a hotkey for "hide".

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #12 –
One of the things I like about the radio button idea is that if you have them in place of the current drop down lists then you can see at a glance what is active on your selection.

"But you can now " I hear you say.  True, but I like to work with patterns.  The current process requires that I actually read the active attributes' name - this is fine, I read fast, but to be able to see a pattern of dots is even better once I know what the pattern means.

The currently active keystrokes must remain - this is most important!  But I confess, I do use a mouse sometimes...  I apologise for not being perfect...  ;)

Whether it will ultimately be better or not I don't know, but I do think it is a good enough idea to experiment with.  My greatest reason for using NWC is the user interface and anything that will improve that is worthy of consideration IMHO  (my second greatest reason is the truly excellent forum and news group <grovel, grovel>)
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #13 –
Quote
What we really need is not a symbol or some klicks less. Just a hotkey for "hide".

The trouble with that is there are four choices to make - visibility=top system only, or default, or never or always.  Which ones get the hot keys, and then what other features do we want hot keys for?

Quote
Alt-Enter
...go to Visibility-tab, using Ctrl-PgDn if this tab is not yet selected and I type "N" ...How are you going to shorten this using radio buttons?

I think radio buttons generally are used when there are few choices to make.  I'm not too sure r.b.'s will shorten Rob's method significantly, particularly if you have to open a  drop-down menu first. 

What does everyone think about having a few more icons in the customizable tool bars, instead, such as the visibility options?  The slur/tie direction could have one too; we already have one for stem direction.
  

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #14 –
Good idea - I'd love to have visibility and slur/tie-direction buttons in the toolbar. That would make my life a lot simpler. But I'm not sure it renders a change to radio buttons moot. There are more places than these that the buttons could be used, and if you're changing more than one attribute it's often easier to work in a dialogue box than move around the button bar. And Lawrie's right (as he usually is); the button patterns would be a quicker read for the current status of an attribute than the menu box is.

And you've opened another question here, David. Does "default" really count as an option? I've never found it a particularly useful entry in the menus. Seems to me there's really only three choices for visibility - always, top staff, and never - and "default" just says the program is going to decide which one of those to use. It would be better, from my standpoint, if the program actually told you which one it was choosing instead of just saying it was taking over the choice. How do the rest of you feel?

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #15 –
Quote
And you've opened another question here, David. Does "default" really count as an option?

Yes, I thought of that when I wrote it, but decided to keep it in.  Good question.

What sort of interface are you thinking of with the radio buttons?  All visible at some location on the screen at the same time, or only visible when a drop-down menu is opened, or something else?

Would you replace the check boxes on the Notation Properties/Notes screen with radio buttons?  Aren't they really the same thing, in a different shape?  If so, is there a reason to change them?  If you would replace them, on what screen would you propose they be placed?

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #16 –
Quote from: William Ashworth –
Good idea - I'd love to have visibility and slur/tie-direction buttons in the toolbar. That would make my life a lot simpler. But I'm not sure it renders a change to radio buttons moot.

Agreed.

Quote
And you've opened another question here, David. Does "default" really count as an option? I've never found it a particularly useful entry in the menus. Seems to me there's really only three choices for visibility - always, top staff, and never - and "default" just says the program is going to decide which one of those to use. It would be better, from my standpoint, if the program actually told you which one it was choosing instead of just saying it was taking over the choice. How do the rest of you feel?

Oh no, default is definitely an important option.  The default visibility of an object depends on what it is: an MPC is never, a note or rest is always, a special ending is top staff.   You need a default option to turn off overrides.


Quote from: David Palmquist –
What sort of interface are you thinking of with the radio buttons?  All visible at some location on the screen at the same time, or only visible when a drop-down menu is opened, or something else?

I had initially considered simply replacing some drop down boxes, otherwise leave the dialogues as they stand...  I think a more comprehensive restructure might be counter productive.

Quote
Would you replace the check boxes on the Notation Properties/Notes screen with radio buttons?  Aren't they really the same thing, in a different shape?  If so, is there a reason to change them?  If you would replace them, on what screen would you propose they be placed?

Check boxes are quite different to radio buttons.  Radio buttons are mutually exclusive, check boxes will work in combination...  I.E. you can have more than one check box active in a grouping where you can only have one radio button in any set active

It might be interesting to see a floating box that's always on top and perhaps dockable that displays all/dominant paramaters for any given selection...  A real downside for this would be the amount af code it could take - may wind up making NWC a lot bigger and that would be unwelcome.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #17 –
Quote
  A real downside for this would be the amount af code it could take - may wind up making NWC a lot bigger and that would be unwelcome.

Yes, and you've seen many of my posts when I've argued against adding to the size, simplicity and cost of the program.  I would much rather stay where we are with it than have a superpowerful program that takes several minutes to download and several minutes to upgrade.

Besides, radio buttons are a "nice to have."  Other items that have been on the wish list for years (ahem) should be the priority.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #18 –
A change to radion buttons shouldn't be that much code, but the floating window I suggested probably would...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: wish list - radio buttons

Reply #19 –
Lawrie is right about radio buttons vs. check boxes. They serve different functions. Check boxes are for cumulative attributes; radio buttons are for mutually exclusive attributes. And I'm thinking the same thing you are, Lawrie, about the design. Look at the visibility dialogue box, for example. It has a lot of empty space in it, and two drop-down boxes close together in the upper left corner. The color box could be moved to the right and the "show on printed page" box could then expand downward as an array of radio buttons. Really a simple design change. (There are too many color choices to make radio buttons a viable option there, although some programmers might disagree.)

I'm not sure I agree with you, though, about the default option. Most programs only have one "reset to default" button that takes care of everything. That is probably oversimplification, and resetting individual defaults can definitely be useful. But there are really only two options on visibility - on or off. Same with slurs and ties - up or down. If you want to turn visibility on or off, or turn a slur around, it's because you're dissatisfied with a specific spot and you need to fix that spot. My instinct there is to go for the visibility or direction I want, not to click "default" and hope the program agrees with me. A good compromise might be one "reset to default" option per dialogue box tab, resetting all options on that tab.

And I agree with everyone on the size of the program. Keep it small and simple! I love the fact that NWC isn't bloatware, and I will cheerfully do without any option on my personal wish list that requires a significant increase in code size to pull off.