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Topic: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request? (Read 4524 times) previous topic - next topic

Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

I apologize in advance if this has been covered in another thread, but after an hour or so of searching/browsing, I haven't found it...

And before I begin, let me give some brief background/context. I've been using NWC forever (I bought 1.5 back in 1998, and just ordered a 1.75 CD so I could take part in the beta and be eligible for 2.0 when it's released). I've always found the program to be an excellent "bang for the buck", compared to the more expensive notation programs out there. I'm an amateur musician, but I'm also a software developer, and I love the User Toolkit PHP thing in the new version.

Okay, on with my request. For the particular problem I'm trying to solve, I am creating a SATB score for our church choir, where the SA parts are on one staff, and TB on another. Layering seems to be the obvious choice, and I've been using the stem length feature to make the 1/8, 1/16, etc. beams & flags "line up" for the parts of the score where the SA or TB tempo are the same. I've noticed in some cases, there is a slight mismatch in the stem heights such that no integer value I can choose will make them line up exactly, so I get a 'blurred' appearance.

Anyway, what I really want to do in these cases is to tell NWC to not draw the flag/beam for a particular note, and to just display the stem. This way the flag/beam on the highest note will print out, and the notes will merge nicely in layered mode. Is there a way to do this? I've searched all of the menus and help files and can't find that option. Basically, I can hide the note head, or the entire stem and flag (by making the height 0), but I can't seem to hide just the flag. It's a lot of work fidgeting with stem heights to make them line up exactly, when it would be much simpler just to hide the flags I don't want to see.

If this isn't an option currently, I would say it'd be a great new feature, don't you think?

Thanks in advance,

  - Mike

Re: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

Reply #1 –
G'day Mike,
if I've understood correctly, you are layering 2 staves (S & A) and are wanting the flags/beams to overlay?

If so, why not simply use the standard NWC chord construct (<Ctrl-Enter>) ?  That way you don't need to worry about the overlaying of the beams etc.

N.B.  Usually when entering S & A on a single staff you would have note stems for the Sop. going upwards and for the Alto going down.  (using 2 staves overlayed is best for this - Sop stems up, Alto stems down) That way they are always visually completely seperate.  If you do need to have the note stems in the same direction for some reason then the Chord suggestion above is probably your answer.

If you really do need to layer (and I normally would) you can still use the standard chord construct for the occasional note(s) and replace on the layered staff with a hidden note or rest.

I hope I've understood your requirements correctly.  BTW, I think you'll really enjoy the benefits of the NWC2 beta.
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

Reply #2 –
It would be easier to suggest a solution if you attached a short example or provided a couple of short clips.

I am in favor of fractional Stemlengths as it would certainly help slurs.  For your problem though, I think it might work for one Staff Size and printer, but fall apart if these were changed.

Hidden flags would facilitate crossbeams.

User Tools aren't limited to PHP. Anything that can read STDIN, write STDOUT and STDERR, and return ERRORLEVEL can be used.

Spawning requires some cleanup of temp files (with Win9x).

VBScript gets you access to the registry and files.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Lawrie Pardy –
G'day Mike,
if I've understood correctly, you are layering 2 staves (S & A) and are wanting the flags/beams to overlay?

If so, why not simply use the standard NWC chord construct (<Ctrl-Enter>) ?  That way you don't need to worry about the overlaying of the beams etc.

N.B.  Usually when entering S & A on a single staff you would have note stems for the Sop. going upwards and for the Alto going down.  (using 2 staves overlayed is best for this - Sop stems up, Alto stems down) That way they are always visually completely seperate.  If you do need to have the note stems in the same direction for some reason then the Chord suggestion above is probably your answer.

If you really do need to layer (and I normally would) you can still use the standard chord construct for the occasional note(s) and replace on the layered staff with a hidden note or rest.

I hope I've understood your requirements correctly.  BTW, I think you'll really enjoy the benefits of the NWC2 beta.

Hello Lawrie,

Thanks for the quick response. You're correct in that I probably could have used chords for the majority of the song, at least for the soprano/alto parts, because their parts are mostly in unison, but there are sections where they sing in a different rhythm. I've read other examples where people have done as you suggest, and reserve the layered staff for only a few measures. I probably would have done that approach if I'd known ahead of time that the flags were going to mess me up :-)

I should also mention that for this instance, I was creating a score to replace a 27th generation photocopy of "Joy to the World" that our choir has been using, and I wanted the appearance to be the same as the singers are used to.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

  - Mike

P.S. to Rick - I haven't quite mastered the "clip" thing yet, but I'll try to use that in my next help request.

Re: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

Reply #4 –
I have very many NWC notations, and I use separate staves for 1st and 2nd instumental parts, and I also adjust the stem length on one of the parts to get the stem lengths to match. When there is a slight mismatch, it is because the stem length value used on the other staff is not an integer value. I go to that staff and click the the "Override Stem Length" for that note using the default value, and then, if necessary, adjusting the stem length on the first staff. I've never seen an instance where this doesn't solve the problem. I'd be interested in seeing your example. It might be something I've not run into.

Re: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

Reply #5 –
Quote from: Gennaro Granito –
... it is because the stem length value used on the other staff is not an integer value.
This was true of earlier Betas.
Except for stems in the interior of a beam,  I can't get Beta 2.10 to display an unset stem length that is not identical with some integer setting for StemLength. I tried for about an hour ....
Registered user since 1996

Re: Lining up beams/flags for layered staves - how to, or new feature request?

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Gennaro Granito –
I have very many NWC notations, and I use separate staves for 1st and 2nd instumental parts, and I also adjust the stem length on one of the parts to get the stem lengths to match. When there is a slight mismatch, it is because the stem length value used on the other staff is not an integer value. I go to that staff and click the the "Override Stem Length" for that note using the default value, and then, if necessary, adjusting the stem length on the first staff. I've never seen an instance where this doesn't solve the problem. I'd be interested in seeing your example. It might be something I've not run into.
Thanks Gennaro. Between posting my original message here and reading your reply, I made the same discovery. Checking the "override" box and leaving the value at the default of 7 isn't the same as not checking the box.

I've also had some luck with using the chord / flip note technique that Lawrie described. However, in one case I was 99% complete with the score before I realized that it wasn't going to work since the two voices I had combined (soprano/alto) had different vocal parts, and it ended up being much easier to display both sets of lyrics if I used layered staves.

Thanks again to all of you who have offered suggestions.

  - Mike