Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 ) (Read 6790 times) previous topic - next topic

Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Quote from: Rick G. –
As of NWC2 Beta 2.05, the problems identified in:
https://forum.noteworthycomposer.com/?topic=5598.msg36329#msg36329
have not been acknowledged or addressed.

The problem of too much space between the signature and the first note when the note occurs without intervening text is most troublesome.  Please help.

It just got worse.
Pop quiz -> Before you paste the clip, which note is closest to the Clef?
A, B, C, or D? (for those who don't do bass clefs)

Code: [Select · Download]
!NoteWorthyComposerClip(2.0,Single)
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:4
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Text|Text:"\|"|Wide:Y
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:5
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Text|Text:"\|"
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:6
|Clef|Type:Bass
|Text|Text:"\|"|Visibility:Never
|Note|Dur:4th|Pos:7
!NoteWorthyComposerClip-End
Answer: B, the one preceeded by text that [glow=red,2,300]Preserves Width![/glow]

Prior to Beta 2.10, the correct answer would have been C, the one preceeded by visible text.
Grrrrr ...
Registered user since 1996

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #1 –
A fancier scheme for ensuring adequate neighbor spacing between various staff elements is under consideration.

As for beta 2.10, unlike in prior NWC2 releases, any non-signature text that does NOT preserve width will not prevent adequate spacing from being created between a clef and a following note. This is a new element of beta 2.10. When you place an expression that preserves width between the clef and the note, you are basically assuming the responsibility to create your desired spacing.

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #2 –
You have a knack for finding the most trivial problems less than three seconds from their creation. Who's going notice 5 mm of extra space? For that matter, who's going to care? I don't understand your problem that needs help. In the quoted post, you declared there was too much space, and now, apparently, you've decided there's too little. I say you should just ignore it.
Supported by The Brotherhood of Pandas

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Archive –
Who's going notice 5 mm of extra space? For that matter, who's going to care?
Only those who use NWC2 to print music.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10)

Reply #4 –
I'm not exactly sure that anyone that uses NWC 2.1 to print music will look at the score and shriek in dismay, "No! The notes are too close to the clef! The apocalypse is coming!" All right, perhaps that was an overstatement. But the point is, it's 5 millimetres. What kind of person would scour a sheet of music to spectifically to find this sort of thing?
Supported by The Brotherhood of Pandas

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #5 –
Quote
What kind of person would scour a sheet of music to spectifically to find this sort of thing?
Well, I think I'd like to make a couple of observations to that statement.

The fact that NoteWorthy have said that they are considering a "fancier scheme for ensuring adequate neighbor (sic) spacing" says that there are improvements to be made in this area and NoteWorthy recognise this. These reports of spacing problems will help to provide a better product for all of us.

A number of people use NoteWorthy to publish music professionally or on a pro-am basis. Printers are very exacting in what they will and will not accept and this results in users having to have a DTP completion system. The more NoteWorthy can do to resolve these sorts of issues, the better .

These sorts of issues are the very reason that there is a beta program and what is important to one group of people will be insignificant to others  - but isn't that the way with life in general?
Rich.

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #6 –
Ahem. This problem doesn't just affect the first system, but all systems.  It allows fewer notes across each system.  That 5mm (it is actually less) moves entire measures, in some cases making what were carefully crafted page turns unplayable (and intoducing new ones).  I will deal with this, initially by changing margins, re-editing later as needed.

By default, NWC is conservative about the space between the KeySig and the the first note in each system.  In the release version (1.75b), there is an undocumented (and heretofore unacknowledged) mechanism to reduce this space that was carried over to NWC2. I have been using it for years.  It changed in Beta 2.09, and took me about two hours to figure out what the new rules were.  My initial post was another attempt (finally successful) to have this clarified.

Who notices? I do. When I read a book, I expect to see kerning and ligatures.  I do not expect to see a ragged right margin.  When I read music, I expect to see notes spaced in relation to each other proportionate to their duration and compact accidentals.  I do not expect to see unnecessary space for barlines, accidentals, special endings, upflags, augmentation dots, etc.  I expect to be able to look down the left side of the page and see a pleasing arrangment of KeySigs and notes.  I expect to be able to look down the right side and see notes of the same duration the same distance from the closing barline.

I'll save slurs and ties for another day.  Thanks, Richard, for your post while I was writing this.
Registered user since 1996

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #7 –
G'day Archive,

Quote from: Archive –
<snip> Who's going notice 5 mm of extra space? For that matter, who's going to care? ...<snip>

Actually, I'm one who cares.., a lot.  I may not be as critical as some but I appreciate their "eagle eyes" as the results that they achieve benefit us all.

I don't know if you've looked at any of my 'Dings font suites but if you have you may have noticed that some of the elements in the replacement NWCx system fonts actually take less horizontal space than the NWC originals.  This wasn't by accident.  I get better spacing control because of it.

I do understand that different ones have different requirements.  Sometimes less, sometimes more exacting.  That's fine, but for the sake of NWC as a product in a competitive market, the better it is, the more acceptable it will be to a broader customer base.

Richard's comment regarding users needing to use DTP applications to post-process NWC output for printers is a case in point.  If this can be reduced, or better, eliminated then NWC will appeal to that broader customer base.

You can bet Sibelius et al require little or no post processing...  If they had NWC's ease of use - read FANTASTICALLY better user interface - then there are probably a reasonable number of NWC users who would move.  My preference is to see NWC totally blitz the competition and the attention to detail provided by the "eagle eye's" brigade is what will help NWC achieve this.

So, please, forgive and be patient with us as we press poor Eric for perfection in his software...
I plays 'Bones, crumpets, coronets, floosgals, youfonymums 'n tubies.

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #8 –
Quote
it's 5 millimetres. What kind of person would scour a sheet of music to spectifically to find this sort of thing?

If my arithmetic is right, 5 mm is about 1/4 inch.  On a staff that's only 7 or 8 mm high, that's a noticeable horizontal displacement.  

I agree with my colleagues.  The purpose of beta testing is to discover bugs and flaws to allow the programmers to fix them.

Re: Spacing problem: first note after clef (Beta 2.10 )

Reply #9 –
Three against one! Or four against one. All right, all, right, you're right and I'm wrong, sure. But I don't understand the problem of such preeminence. Apparently, you don't wish to have space. Therefore, I guess you're complaining that a piece of text which does not have the width preseved takes up too much space. In that respect I find you correct, I guess. I have two last things to say, however.
1) I have found this sort of thing in some engraved music, and
2) The space is less than 5mm, it's more like 2 mm.
Supported by The Brotherhood of Pandas