A very cheeky question...

Topic: A very cheeky question... (Read 16445 times) previous topic - next topic

A very cheeky question...

19 years ago

Hi folks!

First let me say this: what a great forum! I've hung around tons of newsgroups, forums (fora?), bulletin boards and who knows what else since 1993 and from my initial perusal, this appears to be one of the nicest communities around in terms of non-judgemental support. As an aside, the other forum I'd compare it to is also a community of people using a software product developed by a smaller company in a market dominated by super-expensive competitors!

Anyway, I'm now going to attempt to take hideous advantage of you helpful folks and ask my cheeky question: should I buy Noteworthy?

Clearly, even if you're so inclined, you're not going to be able to help without a little background information; so here it is...

Firstly, I'm an amateur. By that, I mean that I'm a musical amateur; no training, little understanding of musical theory and near-zero experience of transcribing music by hand or otherwise. I've been singing and playing various instruments (guitar, piano, flute and sundry others) for fifteen years but I can't even sight-read without three hours' preparation and a pencil, which I suspect doesn't really count. However, I have discovered just this week that I can - with much squinty-type concentration and muffled cursing - transcribe the music in my head to a reasonable facsimile on virtual paper. I know, in other words, "just enough to be dangerous"!

My first experience of the genre was with Finale Notepad about three days ago, on the grounds that it was the first free package I found that actually had something like a workable set of features designed by someone who wasn't on day-release from the Institute for the Terminally Bewildered. That said, I find the user interface... "challenging". Yes, that's probably the most polite term I could apply. "Sucks" might be more apt though. I had been thinking that the paid-for versions might be more user-friendly but judging from some of the historical posts in this forum, perhaps they're not!

Secondly, I really REALLY don't have the time to spend a long period wrestling with the user interface or setting things up in order to produce basic results. I'm lucky if I can grab three or four hours in the course of a week on top of my usual committments and that's paring things right down to the bone. This puppy doesn't even watch television - none at all - 'cos I can't find time to fit it in... and if you're wondering where, in that case, I found the time to write a wordy post to a message board, the answer is - predictably - "because I'm at work"

Thirdly, I suppose it would be helpful to tell you what type of music I'm trying to write with it. I have a small accappella group (five people) who meet every Monday with a view to eventually doing some paid (or at least public) gigs. Unlike me, several of them find it infinitely easier to learn their parts from a written score rather than just by memory; hence my foray into the scary world of "real" musicianship. So mostly I'll be writing up to five vocal parts on a score; mostly British and American folk music with some genre-crossing stuff like barbershop arrangements of pop and rock hits a la "Da Vinci's Notebook".

Thus, I very much doubt I'll ever need many of the features either present or hoped-for in Noteworthy as the type of music we do tends very much toward the lower end of the musical sophistication scale.

That said, I'd like the option to be able to score including guitar chords and piano accompaniment; never let it be said that I'm unwilling to broaden my horizons...

Finally, the kicker. I'm currently using Cakewalk Sonar LE as my audio software. It has some music notation functionality but it's frankly rubbish. In this version, for instance, the only way you can get an accidental is to place the note on the stave, right-click it, select Properties and manually change the pitch from a drop-down box! It's a similar process for dotted notes or notes tied across bar-lines.

However, I will be upgrading said software to Sonar Producer 6 (that's the kick-ass, top-end version of Cakewalk) in the near-ish future. There's d*mn-all information available about its music notation capabilities and I don't know if they're just as shocking or whether they're more comparable with dedicated packages like Noteworthy. Does anyone here know if the full version of Cakewalk has proper notation facilities and can produce proper printed music with lyrics and whatnot?

In summary, the features I really want are:

1) Ease of use
2) The ability to write at least 5 staves (usually S, A, A, T, B)
3) The ability to selectively export some or all of the staves to MIDI; being able to dole out individually-"performed" parts to people in the group along with the printed music would be invaluable
4) The ability to have multiple verses of lyrics under the stave and/or at the end of the piece

The features I'd *like* are:

1) Guitar chords
2) The ability to scan in sheet music
3) The ability to write out in MusicXML

I cannot foresee a time when I'm going to want to produce professional-quality sheet music for publication or for large groups like some of you clever people; creating scores is a purely auxiliary activity for me compared to the main business of arranging, teaching and performing the songs.

Now, I'm not going to say that money's no object, 'cause it is. I don't want to spend money I don't *have* to spend to get the feature set I need, but by the same token I will spend what needs to be spent, if you see what I mean! I have in mind a maximum of around $200 for whatever notation package I buy, but obviously if Cakewalk will do the job I need it to then I don't want to buy anything else and will just get the full Cakewalk package sooner than anticipated.

I absolutely do not want to have to use more than one notation package for the listed purposes, as I'm never going to find the time to learn more than one.

I downloaded the demo of Noteworthy on Tuesday, but since then have had only a couple of hours in which to either "complete a piece I'd started in Finale Notepad" or "start learning NWC", so I'm afraid I took the former option. I'm trying to circumvent at least part of the evaluation process by coming straight to the people who know what they're talking about!

With the vast experience of such matters accumulated herein, what would you advise for my specific needs?

Thanks very much in advance for your help.

Jarrad

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #1 – 19 years ago

First let me say welcome, JvonM. Although I cannot answer all of your questions, I think I can manage most of them. I like you am a self taught musician. Always coming up with new material but never able to write it down. I find that by using Noteworthy, my sight reading skills have improved greatly. I tried Finale. Way too complex and user unfriendly. If time is your enemy, that is not the tool for you. Noteworthy is much simpler to learn and use. The default settings are pretty suitable for most things and easily changeable if they aren't. I'm talking about page and text setup etc. You can open the program and jump right in without having to set every conceivable parameter first.
There are pre defined templates for SATB, and other types of scores, and you can make your own if you like, that will be suitable for your particular needs. Other users share their own features and added user tools through the Scriptorium and this forum. There is some real talent out there. Some are programers who share their knowledge and hard work with others which is nice. For instance, you can write your guitar chords as text above the measure, and if you want to transpose them, there is a user tool offered by another user that will do that for you with a few quick strokes on the keyboard. There is always something new.
As far as your feature list,
1. Ease of use: Probably the easiest you will find.
2. At least 5 staves: I believe you can have 16. Someone else may have a better answer to that.
3. You can choose which staves you want to export to midi. All, none, or any combination. Simply mute what you don't want to hear. You can also print each staff seperately, or any combination therof.
4. I think there are up to 8 lyric lines available for each staff.
5. Guitar chords - Can be written in as text. I used to have a guitar chord font that came with MS Works in a very early version. I think it was back with Windows 3.1. I'm sure it can be found somewhere. Another feature of NWC is that you can add new fonts. There have been several new additions of late by another user Lawrie Pardy who has done a wonderful job in this area. Someone else may be able to guide you to an available guitar chord font.
6. I have heard that scanning in sheet music is possible, however it is way less than perfect and you may need additional software (possibly free), that will enable you to do this. From what I hear, it generally takes as much time to fix the errors as it does to key the piece in.
7. The ability to write out in MusicXML. Not a question I can answer as I don't know what it means! I'll be interested to hear a reply from someone who does.
All in all - For the price, you will not beat this program. I would say that for your use, it would be the right choice. Although I have never usen Cakewalk, I understand that it is also difficult to learn and use. It seems that once you have 'found the pearl of great price', you stop looking. It suits my needs quite nicely.

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #2 – 19 years ago

G'day Jarrad,
I won't try to cover everything you related, but I'll try to hit the highlights.

Quote from: JvonM – 19 years ago

<big snip>
Finally, the kicker. I'm currently using Cakewalk Sonar LE as my audio software. It has some music notation functionality but it's frankly rubbish. In this version, for instance, the only way you can get an accidental is to place the note on the stave, right-click it, select Properties and manually change the pitch from a drop-down box! It's a similar process for dotted notes or notes tied across bar-lines.

However, I will be upgrading said software to Sonar Producer 6 (that's the kick-ass, top-end version of Cakewalk) in the near-ish future. There's d*mn-all information available about its music notation capabilities and I don't know if they're just as shocking or whether they're more comparable with dedicated packages like Noteworthy. Does anyone here know if the full version of Cakewalk has proper notation facilities and can produce proper printed music with lyrics and whatnot?

Can't comment on Cakewalk - I've never used it and don't, at this time, forsee myself needing to. I'm more interested in notation than MIDI performance though NWC makes a fine sequencer and the MIDI exports work quite well. They aren't perfect however. NWC is primarily a notation package.

Quote

In summary, the features I really want are:

1) Ease of use
2) The ability to write at least 5 staves (usually S, A, A, T, B)
3) The ability to selectively export some or all of the staves to MIDI; being able to dole out individually-"performed" parts to people in the group along with the printed music would be invaluable
4) The ability to have multiple verses of lyrics under the stave and/or at the end of the piece

1) Of all the notation products I've seen, NWC is far and away the easiest to learn and use - with no exceptions
2) You can manage LOTS more than 5 staves - there is a limit but I don't recall what it is - I don't think anyone has actually hit it! However, there is a limit to the number of MIDI channels you can use. 16 per synth, and one of those (channel 10 on each synth) is reserved for drums.
3) Muting different parts is simple. Exporting the remaining parts does exactly what you're asking. In addition, with the Viewer, you can share copies of the .NWC file and the recipients can play it back in the viewer and see the lyrics along with their music (with a moving highlight or "chase") - will probably be better than a MIDI
Up to 8 verses per staff. With creative layering, as many as you want... Unfortunately, you cannot have the subsequent verses at the bottom of the page without some kind of "post processing". Again, not hard just another step.

Quote

The features I'd *like* are:

1) Guitar chords
2) The ability to scan in sheet music
3) The ability to write out in MusicXML

1) Entered as text items - no problems. But being text items, they will not *transpose with your music
2) If you register for the NWC2 beta there are tools available to import MusicXML files. So, scan with SharpeEye, correct scan errors, export to mxml and import into NWC2 - works quite well
3) Again, there is a tool available for NWC2 files that will export to mxml

* This is not strictly true. NWC2 has a "user tool" facility for which there is a tool specifically designed for text chord transposition. There are also several other techniques that can be applied but I think this is the easiest.

I have also released some font suites that include a "Chord" symbol font specifically to make it easier to generate chord symbols. I "borrowed" the idea from some fonts that are available for other notation packages. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

In addition RobertA has created a font called "FretQuik" that allows you to draw fingering charts/guides as text.

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<snip>

I absolutely do not want to have to use more than one notation package for the listed purposes, as I'm never going to find the time to learn more than one.

<snip>

As I said earlier, I think NWC is far and away the easiest to learn and use. It is very keyboard oriented which makes it very fast, but if you must, you can also use the mouse for everything. Few people bother with the mouse very much.

I think I've covered most of what you wanted. If I've missed anything I'm sure others will step into the breach.

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #3 – 19 years ago

Hey Lawrie - I checked out Robert A, Fret Quick at the Scripto. It looks a bit more complicated than I would want to get into. I remember a TTF that was bundled in with the others early on that had guitar fret chords all set up. The only problem was that the name of the chords was not included over each one. As my guitar chord rep. is limited, I had to have a chord book handy to tell me what I was looking at so I never really used it. Do you know of any such thing availabe? It would certainly be handy.

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #4 – 19 years ago

G'day Duncan,
while I'm sure something is available, I'm not familiar with any.

Robert's FretQuik is complex to use - you really have to know how your chords are shaped, or be able to work it out.

What I do on the odd occasion that I use it is have a wordpad file open. By changing font as required I can name the chord and create it with Fretquik. Then whenever I need that chord, I cut and paste the Fretquik part into my text entry. Of course, Fretquik must be selected as a user font... but you know that bit... Typecase is a GREAT tool for making the fretboard image from Fretquik!

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #5 – 19 years ago

Thank you both very much for the quick and comprehensive responses! In terms of Cakewalk, I use it because I'm primarily interested in audio recording rather than MIDI as I'm pretty much entirely an acoustic musician these days. The reason for wanting MIDI export if I end up with Noteworthy as my notation tool is that I want to get my scores into Cakewalk to act as "guide tracks" for singers when we're doing recording work... that was also the reason for my query over XML, as the flaws that are introduced when ANY package converts to MIDI tend to go away with XML... or so I'm given to understand from my reading around.

I'm not overly fussed about the lack of guitar chord support or native facilities for transposition. For all of my blithering about having no musical theory knowledge, I've been working off chords for long enough that I can transpose a set in my head on the fly if I know the piece.

I love the sound of the highlighting lyrics as the music plays; that's just lovely - and perfect for my needs, although I'd still need to somehow get the scores into Cakewalk. I didn't know that was part of the feature set!

All in all, it does rather sound as though NWC might be the program for me. I've done two pieces in Finale Notepad now and I have some serious gripes about the user interface, in particular relating to the way that selecting, copying and pasting work. Fussing around holding down shift keys whilst using the mouse to move to another page and performing another selection is a pain, whilst the software's blank refusal to paste something in if you've left a rest or somesuch hanging around is irritating to say the least.

I've read some historical discussions on this forum about forcing conformance to bar lines and whilst I initially thought this would be a useful feature, I think I've rather changed my mind after my recent experiences! Being able to use the keypad to do a lot of the entry is a boon and I'm sure I'd soon absorb the most useful shortcuts.

I have to say, the community aspects are also a plus ;-)

I'd love to learn more about the "fonts" aspect of NWC. I have no problem with having to add chord symbols or fret charts as text, provided I can get 'em on there, although I'd certainly add my two-pennorth to the wishlist for guitar chord support!

I think I like this software...

You'll be seeing more of me, I have no doubt; I've had a little play with NWC whilst my boss's back was turned and the speed of input appears to be about five times that of Finale Notepad. Whether that's just my ignorance of how to use Finale properly or not is almost (but not quite) irrelevant; if it had a better-designed user interface I'd have been at least as fast on Finale as I am on NWC! Alright, maybe that's a little harsh but I'm an extremely experienced computer user (like many others here, I'm in a highly technical line of business) and I think I can reasonably say there's no lack of technical savvy interfering with the process ;-)

Aside from the niggle of the guitar chords/tablature tool thing, I can't see anything to attract me to Finale over NWC now I've had the chance to play a little.

I've got a couple more questions though; is it possible to select a note (or series thereof) and drag it up and down the stave? I can't seem to do that and can't find it in the help file...

...no, hold that thought, I found out how to do it - bizarrely enough - in the section on the Clef symbol command, whilst looking for something completely different! Is this function a keyboard-only thing, or is there a way of dragging notes around with the mouse?

Tell me truly, ladies and gentlemen; was my struggle to find that tidbit down to my lack of *musical* understanding - i.e. was that a perfectly logical place to find the information - or was it more a case of needing to get my head around how the help file is organised? ;-)

Seriously though, I'm starting to appreciate this little gem more and more. The only thing left to do is test the MIDI functionality vs imports to Cakewalk and if all goes well I'll be putting my own dribble of cash into the NWC coffers!

Hmmm... now I wonder if I can get the Beta version? I'm an experience Beta tester and technical author...

Actually, I'll just shut up and pay for NWC2 when it's available to the likes of me; I can't honestly say I'd have sufficient time to send decent reports back...

I'll stop dribbling my stream of consciousness into your pool now. Thanks again, it's nice to meet you all, and I think I'll be becoming a paid-up member of the NWC fan club some time in the next few hours!

Cheers m'dears,

Jarrad

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #6 – 19 years ago

Before purchasing Noteworthy, I tested on behalf of a friend, around 12 packages which claimed to do music notation, ranging from the very cheap to the incredibly expensive. Noteworthy stood out from the others by reason of its intuitive ease of use and its value for money. It has its little problems but none are critical for most users
Go for it!

Tony

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #7 – 19 years ago

I probably will go for it, and soon, but I have realised one thing I really really don't like... the old-style Windows help format! It's starting to irritate me quite unreasonably that I get a separate window every time I want to try and find a new topic. Does anyone know if NCW2 will have the updated style?

Speaking of help, I'm afraid I've got another question! Is it possible to hear the notes as they're placed, a la Finale? Now that's a feature I really do approve of, as musical novices like myself might not spot a mistake (or series thereof) until the piece is played back. I can't see an option for it in the menu system, but maybe I'm missing something - wouldn't be the first time!

Thanks again folks,

Jarrad

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #8 – 19 years ago

G'day again Jarrad,
just a few quick observations...

Quote from: JvonM – 19 years ago

Thank you both very much for the quick and comprehensive responses! In terms of Cakewalk, I use it because I'm primarily interested in audio recording rather than MIDI as I'm pretty much entirely an acoustic musician these days. The reason for wanting MIDI export if I end up with Noteworthy as my notation tool is that I want to get my scores into Cakewalk to act as "guide tracks" for singers when we're doing recording work... that was also the reason for my query over XML, as the flaws that are introduced when ANY package converts to MIDI tend to go away with XML... or so I'm given to understand from my reading around.

MIDI export works. Cakewalk shouldn't have any problems though there are a couple of notation marks that don't export. Primarily things like fermatas and breath marks. That said, there is an NWC2 user tool to "fix" that too.

Quote

I love the sound of the highlighting lyrics as the music plays; that's just lovely - and perfect for my needs, although I'd still need to somehow get the scores into Cakewalk. I didn't know that was part of the feature set!

MIDI'll do it.

Quote

<snip>

... selecting, copying and pasting work. Fussing around holding down shift keys whilst using the mouse to move to another page and performing another selection is a pain, whilst the software's blank refusal to paste something in if you've left a rest or somesuch hanging around is irritating to say the least.

Doesn't happen in NWC - easy as!

Quote

I've read some historical discussions on this forum about forcing conformance to bar lines and whilst I initially thought this would be a useful feature, I think I've rather changed my mind after my recent experiences! Being able to use the keypad to do a lot of the entry is a boon and I'm sure I'd soon absorb the most useful shortcuts.

I have to say, the community aspects are also a plus ;-)

Yes to all

Quote

I'd love to learn more about the "fonts" aspect of NWC. I have no problem with having to add chord symbols or fret charts as text, provided I can get 'em on there, although I'd certainly add my two-pennorth to the wishlist for guitar chord support!

I think I like this software...

Fonts are simple. You have 6 "primary" fonts for lyrics, title, page text, staff text, staff italic text and staff bold. You also have 6 "User" fonts which do not have defined default functions.

All of these fonts are user selectable. If you go the NWC2 route you can now also change the notation font itself - I'm producing some very nice jazz charts these days and this feature makes it much easier.

Check this link for an example: http://zoundz.pardyline.com.au/SupportFiles/Fonts/SwingDings-SampleChart.pdf

This chart has NO post processing performed. Everything you see was produced within NWC2 - took some interesting workarounds for the blank space before the Coda where there ought to have been a staff

and the 1st and second time bar lines are text items instead of the default ones from NWC2.

Quote

You'll be seeing more of me, I have no doubt; I've had a little play with NWC whilst my boss's back was turned and the speed of input appears to be about five times that of Finale Notepad. Whether that's just my ignorance of how to use Finale properly or not is almost (but not quite) irrelevant; if it had a better-designed user interface I'd have been at least as fast on Finale as I am on NWC! Alright, maybe that's a little harsh but I'm an extremely experienced computer user (like many others here, I'm in a highly technical line of business) and I think I can reasonably say there's no lack of technical savvy interfering with the process ;-)

There is no doubt in my mind that the speed difference is purely NWC's significantly better user interface. I have tried so many other products I've lost count and none of them measure up to NWC's user interface.

Quote

<snip>
I've got a couple more questions though; is it possible to select a note (or series thereof) and drag it up and down the stave? I can't seem to do that and can't find it in the help file...

...no, hold that thought, I found out how to do it - bizarrely enough - in the section on the Clef symbol command, whilst looking for something completely different! Is this function a keyboard-only thing, or is there a way of dragging notes around with the mouse?

Tell me truly, ladies and gentlemen; was my struggle to find that tidbit down to my lack of *musical* understanding - i.e. was that a perfectly logical place to find the information - or was it more a case of needing to get my head around how the help file is organised? ;-)

Moving stuff around is a keyboard only thing from memory. Who wants to use a mouse for this kind of thing anyhow? The keyboard is really much faster and far more accurate.

As for the help file, yes it could use some updates and I believe there are some on the way for NWC2. NWC1 development is, AFAIK, at a halt.

Quote

Seriously though, I'm starting to appreciate this little gem more and more. The only thing left to do is test the MIDI functionality vs imports to Cakewalk and if all goes well I'll be putting my own dribble of cash into the NWC coffers!

Hmmm... now I wonder if I can get the Beta version? I'm an experience Beta tester and technical author...

Actually, I'll just shut up and pay for NWC2 when it's available to the likes of me; I can't honestly say I'd have sufficient time to send decent reports back...

Do not pass go, do not collect AUD $200.00. Join the NWC2 beta program. The additional features will blow you away. It is a significantly better product. Sending reports back is as simple as visiting this forum, 'cos that's how you do it. There is also a private news group which registered users can access. The denizens of the NG overlap those of this forum but they are mostly a different group of people. Both groups are extremely friendly and helpful. NWC2 bug reports can also be posted to the NG.

Quote from: JvonM – 19 years ago

I probably will go for it, and soon, but I have realised one thing I really really don't like... the old-style Windows help format! It's starting to irritate me quite unreasonably that I get a separate window every time I want to try and find a new topic. Does anyone know if NCW2 will have the updated style?

Currently NWC2 has the same style help as NWC1. I have to say I prefer this myself but that's because I use 2 monitors and can drag the help window onto the secondary screen and refer to it while I work on the primary. Actually I use this kind of functionality a lot - dunno how people can work with only one screen these days

That said, the notes for the most recent update to NWC2 referred to preparing for changes to the help feature - what this actually means I don't know.

Quote

Speaking of help, I'm afraid I've got another question! Is it possible to hear the notes as they're placed, a la Finale? Now that's a feature I really do approve of, as musical novices like myself might not spot a mistake (or series thereof) until the piece is played back. I can't see an option for it in the menu system, but maybe I'm missing something - wouldn't be the first time!

Yes - in NWC2

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #9 – 19 years ago

Quote from: Lawrie Pardy – 19 years ago

G'day again Jarrad,
just a few quick observations...

MIDI export works. Cakewalk shouldn't have any problems though there are a couple of notation marks that don't export. Primarily things like fermatas and breath marks. That said, there is an NWC2 user tool to "fix" that too.

Well, I've tried exporting from NWC and importing into Cakewalk and the result were interesting! The score *sounded* absolutely fine but it looked extremely weird. For some reason, 1/32-note rests were being introduced before each note, and the note length adjusted accordingly. Would any of you MIDI experts out there have a clue as to why that might be? That said, it's just academic interest: it really doesn't matter if the score looks bizarre in Cakewalk if I'm using NWC as my notation software, provided it sounds OK.

(Lyrics "chasing")

Quote

MIDI'll do it.

So it would seem! My MIDI ignorance is profound as I haven't played with it since I was at school *mumblemumble* years ago, and I never really got into the esoterica back then either.

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Fonts are simple. You have 6 "primary" fonts for lyrics, title, page text, staff text, staff italic text and staff bold. You also have 6 "User" fonts which do not have defined default functions.

Hmmm. Right, OK, that seems pretty straightforward!

Quote

All of these fonts are user selectable. If you go the NWC2 route you can now also change the notation font itself - I'm producing some very nice jazz charts these days and this feature makes it much easier.

I'm starting to see the attraction of the beta program

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Check this link for an example: http://zoundz.pardyline.com.au/SupportFiles/Fonts/SwingDings-SampleChart.pdf

Well, I freely confess that I don't know what all of the symbols mean, but that's one pretty-looking chart nonetheless! :-)

I'm not afraid to show my ignorance... what does the solid black line in Bar 69 signify? There are other symbols that I'm sure I'd have recognised back in my schooldays that I just can't remember the meaning of (the little arrows under certain notes, the arch-with-a-dot-in-it symbol over the final bar) but I'm fairly sure I've never known what the big black line means!

I'll have to have a go at playing that when I get home :-)

Quote

This chart has NO post processing performed. Everything you see was produced within NWC2 - took some interesting workarounds for the blank space before the Coda where there ought to have been a staff and the 1st and second time bar lines are text items instead of the default ones from NWC2.

Y'know, I think I'm going to have to be very careful when using this product and keep reminding myself that the important thing for me is to finish the arrangement and get on with the next one, not to try and make something look really pretty. Trouble is, if people like you are going to go around producing all these lovely-looking charts, I'll be constantly fighting a battle against the urge to concentrate on aesthetics!

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There is no doubt in my mind that the speed difference is purely NWC's significantly better user interface. I have tried so many other products I've lost count and none of them measure up to NWC's user interface.

I can quite believe that. I went back to working in Finale for a period last night for comparison purposes, and I dug out the keyboard shortcut chart... Although the note-placing caret is much friendlier in Finale than the little black blob you get in NWC (it's so much easier to tell where you are above or below the stave) the keyboard shortcuts themselves are frankly nothing short of weird! There are shortcuts for Smartshape features that I'd imagine only a fraction of the userbase actually need, but no shortcut - for instance - for tieing the currently-selected note across barlines... like I said, WEIRD!

Quote

Moving stuff around is a keyboard only thing from memory. Who wants to use a mouse for this kind of thing anyhow?

Me. Given that you are selecting the swathe of notes with the mouse in the first instance, it would make perfect sense to complete the action with the mouse... especially as it's a three-button operation to shift the notes around with the keyboard. When adding stuff, the keyboard is best. When moving stuff, being able to use the mouse would be immensely helpful.

Quote

As for the help file, yes it could use some updates and I believe there are some on the way for NWC2. NWC1 development is, AFAIK, at a halt.

Ah, that NCW2 thing again ;-)

Quote

Do not pass go, do not collect AUD $200.00. Join the NWC2 beta program. The additional features will blow you away. It is a significantly better product. Sending reports back is as simple as visiting this forum, 'cos that's how you do it. There is also a private news group which registered users can access.

OK, you've sold it to me, I give up!

I will register for the beta program! Sounds like a very worthwhile exercise.

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Currently NWC2 has the same style help as NWC1. I have to say I prefer this myself but that's because I use 2 monitors and can drag the help window onto the secondary screen and refer to it while I work on the primary. Actually I use this kind of functionality a lot - dunno how people can work with only one screen these days

That's great - you're giving me an excuse to rush out and buy that 21" LCD I've had my eye on as a secondary monitor for my 17" widescreen laptop

Funnily enough, I've been thinking about doing that 'cos I use two monitors at work...

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That said, the notes for the most recent update to NWC2 referred to preparing for changes to the help feature - what this actually means I don't know.

Even with two monitors, I'd prefer the newer help-file format so I'll keep my fingers crossed!

(Notes sounding when placed)

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Yes - in NWC2

Yippee! Gimmee that beta!

Cheers Lawrie!

Jarrad

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #10 – 19 years ago

G'day again Jarrad,
just pickin' the eyes out again

Quote from: JvonM – 19 years ago

Well, I've tried exporting from NWC and importing into Cakewalk and the result were interesting! The score *sounded* absolutely fine but it looked extremely weird. For some reason, 1/32-note rests were being introduced before each note, and the note length adjusted accordingly. Would any of you MIDI experts out there have a clue as to why that might be? That said, it's just academic interest: it really doesn't matter if the score looks bizarre in Cakewalk if I'm using NWC as my notation software, provided it sounds OK.

This kind of thing is common in MIDI imports. A written note is never as long as the time value would suggest unless the note has a tenuto, is part of a slurred series, is tied to another note or the playing style is legato. Even then there can be differences.

MIDI is about absolute note on and note off times, notation is more of a guideline for the musician who will use whatever style is directed or seems appropriate to the musician.

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(Lyrics "chasing")

So it would seem! My MIDI ignorance is profound as I haven't played with it since I was at school *mumblemumble* years ago, and I never really got into the esoterica back then either.

Oops, that was the NWC Viewer. However, some MIDI players, actually Karaoke players like "Van Basco's", will do a lyric chase if there are lyrics in the MIDI file.

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Well, I freely confess that I don't know what all of the symbols mean, but that's one pretty-looking chart nonetheless! :-)

I'm not afraid to show my ignorance... what does the solid black line in Bar 69 signify? There are other symbols that I'm sure I'd have recognised back in my schooldays that I just can't remember the meaning of (the little arrows under certain notes, the arch-with-a-dot-in-it symbol over the final bar) but I'm fairly sure I've never known what the big black line means!

I'll have to have a go at playing that when I get home :-)

The big black line is a "multi bar rest". It's actually a text item, NWC does not support it natively. In the music there are 2 whole bars there with their contents hidden. The text item is for display.

The little arrows are accents, the line is a tenuto and the arch with a dot is a fermata or pause

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...Trouble is, if people like you are going to go around producing all these lovely-looking charts, I'll be constantly fighting a battle against the urge to concentrate on aesthetics!

Keep it up, all compliments gratefully accepted!

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(Moving with mouse)

Me. Given that you are selecting the swathe of notes with the mouse in the first instance, it would make perfect sense to complete the action with the mouse... especially as it's a three-button operation to shift the notes around with the keyboard. When adding stuff, the keyboard is best. When moving stuff, being able to use the mouse would be immensely helpful.

Ahh, I never do it that way... <Shift-Arrow> will highlight an object at a time, <Ctrl-Shift-Arrow> will highlight a bar at a time. <Ctrl-Arrow> moves a bar at a time. <Ctrl-Up> moves the insertion point up an octave, <0> (zero) centres the insertion point on the staff and resets any previously pressed keys like </> (tie) and <;> (slur). I use the keyboard for 99% of everything I do in NWC.

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<snip>
That's great - you're giving me an excuse to rush out and buy that 21" LCD I've had my eye on as a secondary monitor for my 17" widescreen laptop Funnily enough, I've been thinking about doing that 'cos I use two monitors at work...

I really have trouble on a single monitor now, my productivity drops alarmingly!

<snip>

"Talk" to ya soon...

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #11 – 19 years ago

About MXML, there is a package to convert NWC1 files to MXML. There is also a package to convert MXML to Noteworthy-Composer-2-Clips. (http://musicxml.org/software.html#BetaBoth) I'm not sure when a converter between NWC2 Clips and MXML will be released.

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #12 – 19 years ago

G'day Kahman,

Quote from: kahman – 19 years ago

About MXML, there is a package to convert NWC1 files to MXML. There is also a package to convert MXML to Noteworthy-Composer-2-Clips. (http://musicxml.org/software.html#BetaBoth) I'm not sure when a converter between NWC2 Clips and MXML will be released.

I stand corrected. I thought that export tool was for NWC2... My apologies to all.

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #13 – 19 years ago

Still, it's really good to know that the MSXML conversion can be done, and I'd be very surprised if someone didn't do something similar for NWC2 in the very near future! Incidentally, I've had a play with PrimoPDF as suggested elsewhere on these discussion boards and it's absolutely great. Having maximum portability for finished scores - and for free - is very nice indeed...

If it hadn't existed, I'd probably have suggested native printing to PDF as a feature in NWC2 as there's open-source code available for that function. As it is, it'd probably be a bit of a waste of time

Thanks yet again folks for all the help

Re: A very cheeky question...

Reply #14 – 19 years ago

I just wanted to add that if you are using text for chords (eg "A7", "Bbm" etc) that these can be transposed by a User Tool (only available in NWC2) that I wrote. It is available at the Scriptorium. I won't go into explaining its use right now.